Sunday, December 25, 2011

Thank you

First of all, I would like to say that I am overwhelmed by the positive response that I am getting from all of you. I would like to personally thank all of you who have written such warm and encouraging comments to my post, and a big thanks for defending me so passionately from Kai56. I really cannot blame him, because he is just a typical Muslim who believes that no matter what, Islam is right and Mohammed is the best human being, and Muslims are the best of all nations. It is something which has been instilled in the minds of these people, and it takes a lot of courage and guts to shake it out of your system.

Since I do not want to reveal my identity for obvious reasons, I won't be able to respond to each and every comment personally, as I am not posting on the blog myself. Robert and I both thought it would be much safer if I forward him the articles and let him post them on my blog. This way the crazy fanatics like Kai and Slave of Allah won't be able to trace me down, and unfortunately they won't get the great honor of killing me and going straight to paradise to bang the 72 whores waiting for them there.

I have a small request for all my friends and well wishers, I just want you to ignore people like Kai and Slave of Allah. Reacting to their crazy comments is like acknowledging them in the first place, which is totally serving their purpose. I know that what I have done is the right thing, and I am on the right path finally, after being in prison for half of my life. There are other more important things for me to do other than defend myself in front of these losers. They are nothing but clones of Mohammed, heartless and brain-dead.

I will try to drop in a few lines every day, because I have a lot, a whole lot of things to say which I have been keeping inside for so long that I sometimes felt as if I would explode, but now thanks to the path shown to me by the Lord, I feel so free and light, as if all the load has been taken off my chest.

Even if I am not able to respond to your comments due to safety reasons, I would appreciate it very much if you keep on reading my blog and posting your lovely comments...

99 comments:

  1. We're not going away any time soon!

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  2. Your strength is an example for all of us, whether or not we have been, or are now a Muslim. I cannot send enough prayers for your continued safety and growth, please do whatever is needed to continue to tell your story. Robert acting as the middleman is a Godsend, he is a rare human being and he is respected by all of us, across the globe. My personal prayers for you, every day are done in the hope you will receive all the blessings that come with the truth. Enjoy your new life as a free human, there are thousands of us who stand silently behind you, you have an army available for your protection and safety, un-named but strong and faithful. We love you, Merry Christmas. Barry Sommer, islamtodayoregon.blogspot.com

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  3. Welcome to the real world. Merry Christmas! Don't care much about Kai or Mo or whatever they call themselves.

    One of the things about Islam is, it condones killing its own youth without mercy and offers older guys young wives. The older guys call for jihad of their youths by promising 72 sex slaves after life, so they get to bang their young wives. Lets be clear, if they really believed in that crap they will line up first to the call of Jihad .. what a bunch of first rate crooks belonging to the first rate evil psychopathic religion. This con is so obvious that it should not take more than two neurons to figure. It should be illegal in any reasonable environment. Obviously, there is a huge self-determination problem in the Islamic world since last 1400 years. That is one of the major downfall of Islam, hence people like yourself are made to hide and suffer and people like Kai have nothing coherent to think or say.

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  4. I'm glad to hear you are not posting yourself. But I wonder if it's safer to use a proxy server or even two when you send stuff to Robert...

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  5. Some commentators have expressed surprise at the excellent English of the poster. I'm not. The Queen's English is taught to a very high standard on the sub-continent.

    Regarding Dar-schan's comment, yes, it is quite clear that Islam is designed specifically to create an army of violent young men willing to die for its purposes. Actual religions spend a good deal of effort attempting to sublimate the natural energy of young men towards positive activity. Islam, the opposite. How many times is Islamic mob violence noted as being immediately after Friday 'prayers'?

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  6. Islam has an interesting singularity, compared with other totalitarian-type ideological systems. The norm for such systems (whether we are talking in a small scale about neighborhood criminal gangs, or larger gangs like the Mafia or the various drug cartels, or larger than that, the Nazis, the Fascists of Italy, the Shinto cult of mid-20th century Japan, the Communism of Russia, China and other SE Asian polities), seems to be that a mass populace is controlled by an elite who use various forms of subversion, terror, thuggery and violence to keep the masses in line.

    While there is some variation among these systems -- for example, one could say that more North Korean people are "true believers" of the cult there than were the Russian people living under the U.S.S.R. -- for the most part, it would be safe to assume that probably the majority of the people are literally being oppressed, and consciously (or at least semi-consciously) desire to be free of it, but they can't find a way because the suppression is relatively so effective. Many Russians and East Europeans did have the courage to escape -- but many lost their lives in the attempt (or family members were tortured or killed as punishment).

    What fascinates about Islam and makes it stand out from all other totalitarian-type ideological systems -- from reading countless accounts of ex-Muslims; from reading the writings of Muslims in their various stages of denial, deception and truculent pathology; and from reading countless reports of the various behaviors of Muslims, often mass behaviors, which demonstrate "true believer" fanaticism -- it seems that far more Muslims are willingly and eagerly supporting the totalitarian system that oppresses them.

    With Islam, it doesn't seem like we have a situation of a small minority of dictators and thugs and imams forcing the vast majority of people into Islam unwillingly. The vast majority of Muslim people seem to really desire Islam. While we occasionally read stories about Muslims like Liberated One, I think it would be a mistake to extrapolate and generalize from that, and assume that the masses of Muslims are like these relatively few exceptions.

    That's why I find various insinuations -- often written by well-meaning, albeit starry-eyed sentimentalists -- that "most Muslims are just victims" to be not only naive, not only ignoring mountains of data that indicate otherwise, but also reckless in that it tends to inculcate in us a frame of mind and a disposition of heart that could well jeopardize the safety of our own societies in the decades ahead -- when, in order to protect ourselves best from unpredictable and fanatical Muslims, we will have to cultivate a colder and more ruthless view of the matter.

    The influx of millions of Muslims into the West continues. The situation is getting worse, year by year. And since we cannot tell which among these millions of immigrants will be enabling and even plotting horrific attacks on us in the decades to come (and Muslim fanatics can be infinitely patient, and wait years to get things right), we are increasingly setting ourselves up for terrible losses of life, life-ruining injuries of untold numbers of people, destruction of property, and outbreaks of civil unrest -- unless we start re-orienting our priorities now.

    For exhaustive detail about the above, see my essay:

    The Iron Veil

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  7. FYI, you can hide the IP address you're posting (or sending webmail) from with a service like www.hidemyip.com

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  8. Good analysis Hesperado. A noteworthy observation "Muslim fanatics can be infinitely patient, and wait years to get things right". To backup with evidence there are several reported incidents of up to third generation MoSlum immigrants committed Jihad or honor killings in the Western countries. It should be a serious crime that the politicians make no provisions, based on the facts, for a safer future for our future generations to live. The MoSlums will never assimilate as you already pointed out they prefer ruthless dictators to democracy.

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  9. Bite my ass Mr. Spencer for unlike these dipshits who are praising "Liberated" I know what it's like to survive a death cult. You should be whipped in public.

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  10. You rock, Woman!
    ... and fortunatelly, you are not alone.

    Islam is a lie, and it is predestined to perish, and brave woman, such as you, are the sparks igniting the firestorm.

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  11. Muslims cannot be citizens of the world, or even citizens among the saints. Their worldview is that of the slave, with Allah, not God, as a master.
    Now that you have extricated yourself from Islam, even if you are still in the Ummah, you will be able to empathize with all peoples, you will care where others leave things to deteriorate, you will heal where others will hurt.
    I know of only one other person who is in the Ummah but a believing Christian. He must keep his faith a very deep secret, but he has much to share about what his faith does for him. He has the perspective of a Christian in spite of the forces exerted upon him by his community to be the indifferent slave.
    By your faith, you are laying up the great treasures in heaven, and the Lord will do for you all the things you cannot do for yourself.
    There's a song lyric that goes: take your burden to the Lord and leave it there.

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  12. This gets funnier every time. You seem to think that with you leaving a religion changes anything. Nobody wants to kill you, we just pity you. You broke the bond and what you are going through is exactly right.
    "my lord" what lord might that be? make it up as you go along?
    Going to church on sundays? are we confused?????
    Deaf, dumb and blind wandering, thats your current state.
    Norway massacre linked robert spencer does not have the answers. You can see his bafoonery on wwww.spencerwatch.com

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  13. sadly, there are still lots of people who 'study' Islam only by reading books written by Dhimmi 'scholars' (e.g., John Esposito).

    I met such a person last week. He's a bright guy who will probably figure it out someday (I suggested he at least ought to read what some apostates from Islam have said) but he has a lot of of people in his study group who are stupid enough that I doubt they will grasp the truth.

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  14. May this be a most joyous and Merry Christmas, brother! Sirach 2:1-6

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  15. Hesperado, Islam comes from the tribal culture of Bedouin Arabs. In such cultures the concept of the individual as an autonomous unit is non-existent; everything is the tribe; a sentiment which Islam adapts straight-forwardly (as can be seen from some of the comments here).

    With Arabs it works, because it's their existing culture. They are not so much 'true believers' as they are willing elements subsumed into the tribe.

    In cultures with some some sense of individuality - where ones tribe is not the central fact of life - it does not work so well.

    In contrast Judaism and Christianity marry individuality and community well, and are well suited to the modern world.

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  16. Liberated One - I am continuing to pray that God will guide your steps. He is the one who has opened your eyes to the bankruptcy of Islam, and He will continue to show you the way forward.

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  17. Good for you, Islam lets you chose so make your decisions. Islam also encourages everyone to disprove the Islamic religion, if they can. So you have accepted the Islam's open challenge? and i hope you not just end up ridiculing Islam like other but through rational and reasoning, which no one has ever done.

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  18. You are the reason we should all take care not to judge all muslims no matter how we feel about islam. Apostates are living proof that there are good people in islam. It's just a matter of reaching them. Some will always remain blinded by the brainwashing in islam, but every now and then a truly good person breaks free of those islamic chains. Apostates have experienced islam firsthand and there can be no better teachers than those who know the religion from the inside.

    Good for you in your new enlightenment and liberation. I pray you will always be safe and that you can help others using your experiences as a guide. Maybe in your strength, they too will find the courage to question their faith, and maybe find the same truth you did.

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  19. Of the blog writer, Liberated One, DWriter wrote:

    "You are the reason we should all take care not to judge all muslims no matter how we feel about islam. Apostates are living proof that there are good people in islam. It's just a matter of reaching them."

    This is a fine idea in the abstract; but there are ways it can be translated into actual policy which would serve to endanger the lives of countless men, women and children in the non-Muslim (i.e., the real) world -- and the fault for that lies entirely in the systemic disease of Islamic fanaticism.

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  20. Woops -- correction: I meant "DMartyr"

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  21. May The One Living God of all creation Bless you and keep you, heal you and bring you to that place where you can be used mightily of Him even as a bridge... from captive to free. May He give you His strength of heart and courage of His right hand. God Bless you.

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  22. You criticize Islam not with facts or reason but by stupid jokes and insensitve humor like that dumb Jewish comedian Kramer when he had a drunk rant... Worshiping a white, blue eyed Jesus will not be your ticket into heaven.

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  23. "Robert and I........" Oh dear, major faux pas there by shacking up with a Loon like Robert Spencer, he who has no qualifications on Islam whatsoever. As has been already pointed out this blog is reminiscent of the Syrian blogger who turned out to be a fake. This latest diatribe is straight from spencer himself. What's the matter Robert, not getting enough attention on your own site jihad watch ? If this blogger is a real person, would they really hook up with a kook like spencer.............really with so many other options, you picked Spencer, holy shit, LOL.........yeah good luck with that. In the meantime have a look at this link so you can appreciate how mad spencer really is http://www.loonwatch.com

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  24. There is no point criticizing Islam with facts or reason, because Islam abandoned reason many centuries ago, and is now totally irrational, and indeed anti-rational.

    Ridicule is far more effective against this arrogant, pompous, hypocritical web of deceit.

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  25. Congratulations that you have seen the LIGHT because Muhammadan Islam is perpetual DARKNESS.
    You listed several very important authors about Muhammad but you have missed one of the most prolific on this subject who was born in Iraq (his mother tongue is Arabic) who had spent 30 years researching the sordid subjects of the CULT of Muhammad, his Quran, his Sunna, Sharia, etc producing 780 chapters, 310 audio/videos, over 240 LIVE radio interviews and over one hundred published articles on line all over the world. Just Google 'alrassooli' and you will have a treasure of astounding revelations.
    This my contribution to your education, salvation and with my best wishes.

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  26. Congratulations that you have seen the LIGHT because Muhammadan Islam is perpetual DARKNESS.
    You listed several very important authors about Muhammad but you have missed one of the most prolific on this subject who was born in Iraq (his mother tongue is Arabic) who had spent 30 years researching the sordid subjects of the CULT of Muhammad, his Quran, his Sunna, Sharia, etc producing 780 chapters, 310 audio/videos, over 240 LIVE radio interviews and over one hundred published articles on line all over the world. Just Google 'alrassooli' and you will have a treasure of astounding revelations.
    This my contribution to your education, salvation and with my best wishes.

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  27. Dear Liberated,

    One of the things that I found beautiful as I began to accept myself as a Christian, after months of tiring guilt that I felt for leaving Islam, was the fact that I was no longer a "Slave" of God, but rather a Child of God.

    I pray that Slave of Allah finds that, and sees how he is able to change the way he looks at himself, when he accepts and sees how God truly looks at us, instead of how Islam claims God is.

    Thank you for sharing your blog. As an ex-Muslim myself, I see how tiring it is, how UNFAIR it is, living this way, in this fear of being "caught". I pray that we all find the freedom to be who were are, and believe what we want.

    Talitha

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  28. Liberated,

    Your well stated position and gentle response to detractors is a testament to the work in your heart of the Savior, and stand in sharp contrast to the tone of your detractors.

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  29. Dear Liberated One,

    How wonderful to read of your journey from the chains of one religion. I applaud your courage and your search for truth even at the risk of your life. I feel for you when you sought for help and was offered none by one in a position that should have been able to help. May the Lord Jesus Christ guide you as you continue your journey and enable you to escape the chains of all religion.

    In my interaction with many Muslim friends over the years I would occasionally say in conversation with them "God help me not to be religious". They were always shocked. They could not understand me. What they could not understand is that religion of any sort can be the enemy of faith. There is a great erroneous assumption by many Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Muslims alike that keeps them all from God - an assumption that states "by being religious I can please God". No can please God by being religious.

    There is my friend no benefit from leaving the chains of one religion for the chains of another. The only benefit, the only real liberty in life comes by knowing and accepting the Truth. There is only one Truth. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by me." He also said, "You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free." This, and only in this Liberated One is real freedom. Not freedom from Islam but freedom in Jesus Christ from your own sins. You can find out more about this in the Gospel of John. I pray that you indeed will find the liberty you seek by believing in and following the Lord Jesus Christ. In Him alone is liberty, joy, peace and fullness of life.

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  30. You have been and will continue to be in my prayers, dear one. Keep looking to the Lord Jesus Christ who is true life and truth and love and peace. He says, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).

    You are right to ask us to ignore people like Kai. They WANT to wound had anger; they don't know peace, patience and love, but only hatred and anger. We should pray for them, not respond in kind.

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  31. It’s very generous of Mr. Spencer to act as your “go-between,” but I wonder why you’re exchanging one Great Ghost in the Sky for another. The Christian creed allows a modicum of thinking, at least, but I still don’t see the advantage of exchanging one faith for another. If you look at the mess the world is in, Islam says that Allah wills it, and Christianity says, “It’s God’s way,” and neither creed can or will offer a rational explanation for it. It’s supposed to remain “mysterious.” Which means you’re not supposed or expected to understand it. And that’s not a very practical way of living one’s life or of defending it when irrationalists (such as the Slave of Allah above, who forgets that Christ was nominally a Semite, and not a blue-eyed white man). And both creeds require that you just accept it. The world is in a mess because men abandon or disparage reason, individual rights, and freedom—or never discover them, or are afraid of them. (Reason requires intellectual honesty, individual rights require a government that respects and upholds them, and freedom requires the responsibility for one’s own life and actions.) No religion can accept any of those except in an adulterated state. Just some thoughts to give you pause to think, which you’ve proven you’re able and willing to do.

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  32. Whether Muslims are moderate of radical, matters not. Once Muslims are a near majority, sharia will kick in. Thus the attempt to delineate between the two above groups is meaningless.

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  33. Test post.

    No more Islam. let's see all those who were born into it and never given a choice, start a movement away from it and begin to take control of their own lives!

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  34. Hesperado - I think you are wrong to suggest muslims should be collectively held accountable for the evil of islam. Islam boasts of 1.3 billion followers, but many of those followers, like Liberated, only call themselves muslim out of fear. And it is a justified fear. Radical muslims have and continue to threaten, intimidate, and even kill those who express doubts.

    For us, non-muslims, to hold *all* muslims accountable for the violent behavior of some (and granted, that 'some' is quite a few) is to alienate those who have very few choices in the first place. If they feel that the non-muslim world hates *muslims* rather than *islam*, it leaves them little hope, and it gives even greater power to islamic oppressors.

    Apostates are taking a great risk in leaving that death cult. We need to make the message clear that apostates will be embraced, welcomed, and protected. We need to force our leaders in Western countries to have a more liberal policy of granting asylum to those fleeing religious prosecution - specifically from islamic nations.

    To Liberated - A poster above mentioned IQ al Rassooli. I couldn't agree more to added IQ to your book list. Google him for his website. His videos and books expose islam. He uses original arabic texts and clearly translates them into english so muslims (and non-muslims) can better understand what is really in the quran and the hadiths.

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  35. To skouti,

    I'm afraid you are deluding yourself. Spencer is a best-selling author with another book in the works, the primary contributor to a website that has at least two Islamic websites specifically devoted to debunking it, and a prolific speaker much in demand. Why would he need to create a fictitious identity? It simply doesn't make sense.

    Second, you criticize Spencer for having no credentials on Islam. The root of this criticism is that Spencer does not hold any degrees from Islamic schools, which is true, and that Spencer does not hold a PhD from any Islamic studies program, which is also true. However, Spencer is plainly an authority on Islam, and successfully takes on any Islamic scholar who will agree to debate him.

    By the way, Danios, the creator of loonwatch, also holds no academic credentials in Islam. Does that disqualify his website in your eyes? His website is a strictly amateur undertaking, although I admire him personally for his intellect and presentation skills. But, his website refutes your assertion that an amateur cannot say anything about Islam.

    I like some of the people who post there. I disagree with them, of course, but if I had more time, I would spend it there to learn the best arguments that can be offered in defense of Islam. Unfortunately, academic arguments cannot hold water when you look at the results of Islam almost anywhere.

    For example, there are 53 Muslim countries that are members of the UN and the OIC. Can you name me a single Muslim country where Liberated would not be in danger for her life and freedom were she to be revealed as an apostate who speaks against Islam? This alone refutes all the sophistry designed to show that Islam is a religion of tolerance or freedom.

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  36. Wherever we can eliminate the fear of retribution for apostasy, there will be no islam,

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  37. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  38. DMartyr,

    [I had to delete my comment due to a crucial post-publishing typo.]

    It's not a matter of "holding accountable" all Muslims. It's a matter of putting our safety as the #1 priority.

    Given the complexity of the problem (including among many other factors our inability to tell, with sufficient certitude, the difference between the genuinely harmless Muslims and the dangerous Muslims), such a priority will necessarily entail collateral damage against an indeterminate number of apparently innocent Muslims as well as Dar-al-Islam non-Muslims -- and that damage will likely range from the uncomfortable, to the offensive, to the disturbing, to the unfortunately tragic.

    To solidify into place attitudes, and then policies, that hamper our ability to maximize our #1 priority to protect our societies, is grievously wrong, and irresponsible and reckless. And it is those I hold accountable for making the coming denouement messier, costlier, and bloodier, than it needed to have been, had we been more rational and ruthless.

    Think of the money, property, and lives that could have been saved, had people in the West not been so damned sentimental and starry-eyed while Hitler was spending 15 years ramping up his systemic evil. Had we invaded and bombed Germany PRIOR to 1939, and necessarily, tragically killed a certain number of innocent Germans (ditto for Italy and Japan), we would have saved millions of lives.

    But I guess it's more important to feel good about ourselves than to prevent deadly catastrophes.

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  39. The Qur'an denies that human beings are made in the likeness of God. Islam conceives God in the image of the all-too-human, as a dictator of the most absolute sort, whose will is virtually never to be questioned. Submission to God is also part of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but in a very different way: not to the misanthropic extent one finds at the core of Islam.

    Consider, for example, the meaning of the name "Israel," which the Bible says Jacob received for wrestling all night with God who had appeared to Jacob in the form of a man or angel. Israel means, "he wrestled with God," or "he struggled with God" or even "he strove with God." Now recall that "jihad" means striving, so that one might say that Jacob and God were "jihading" with and against each other all night. Could one ever imagine an orthodox Muslim using the term "jihad" in that way? That sort of struggling with God has virtually no part in Islam. Nor did the being whom Muhammad met in the cave at the beginning of Islam wrestle with Muhammad all night. Islamic tradition tells us that that being practically crushed the breath out of Muhammad until Muhammad, within moments, agreed to recite what would become the Qur'an's first-revealed verse.

    Islam speaks of a very slavish kind of submission to a God who is debased to appear as the ultimate dictator and only free being. The Jews and Christians, by contrast, speak of a covenant, a mutual agreement or contract with God. Jews and Christians are conceived as sons and daughters of God. The Qur'an clearly states Allah has no sons or daughters. Furthermore, Qur'an 51:56, for example, says that human beings have been created only so they could be Allah's slaves or servants.

    The differences are huge.

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  40. Don't bother looking back to the chains of that cultic ideology of islam.Just move forward with your life.May the Almighty God who sent us his only begotten son Jesus Christ guide you in this journey.

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  41. For Liberated:

    John Quincy Adams, sixth president of the United States:


    John Quincy Adams possessed a remarkably clear, uncompromised understanding of the permanent Islamic institutions of jihad war and dhimmitude. Regarding jihad, Adams states in his essay series,

    “…he [Muhammad] declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.”


    Adams on Jesus Christ and Christianity, Relative to Muhammad and Islam

    "And he [Jesus] declared, that the enjoyment of felicity in the world hereafter, would be reward of the practice of benevolence here. His whole law was resolvable into the precept of love; peace on earth – good will toward man, was the early object of his mission; and the authoritative demonstration of the immortality of man, was that, which constituted the more than earthly tribute of glory to God in the highest… The first conquest of the religion of Jesus, was over the unsocial passions of his disciples. It elevated the standard of the human character in the scale of existence…On the Christian system of morals, man is an immortal spirit, confined for a short space of time, in an earthly tabernacle. Kindness to his fellow mortals embraces the whole compass of his duties upon earth, and the whole promise of happiness to his spirit hereafter. THE ESSENCE OF THIS DOCTRINE IS, TO EXALT THE SPIRITUAL OVER THE BRUTAL PART OF HIS NATURE." (Adam's capital letters)….[pp. 267-268]



    “In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Adam's capital letters)….Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant…While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men.” [p. 269]

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  42. Well, I'm glad you are safe. There are already enough honor killings in the news as it is.

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  43. Hesperado,
    Is necessary self-defense, such as you propose, accurately labeled "ruthless"? Is unavoidable collateral damage "ruthless"? If not, then you are perhaps unnecessarily giving your own position an insult by labeling it "ruthless". Ruthless means "having no compassion or pity or mercy." You have plenty of pity for innocent people and civilizations. Almost everyone acknowledges that "collateral damage" is not always ruthless but rather is sometimes tragically necessary and unavoidable. Your position can only be labeled ruthless if one looks very selectively at a part of its consequences. But looking at the whole picture, what motivates your position is a desire to help save civilized life and huge numbers of innocents.

    I suspect you should speak more of "tragic necessities," and less, or not at all, of "ruthlessness." Your policies can be exactly the same, but without the stain of a cruel label.

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  44. To Ronaldb,

    Follow your own logic, if Spencer proclaimed himself to be an expert in open heart surgery, even though he has no qualifications in medicine, you would happily let him operate on you........nope didn't think you would. Yet you blindly accept spencers drivel on Islam and proclaim him to be an expert based on what exactly.......Spencer having written a few books, does not a scholar make. It might interest you to know that before Spencer decided to bash Islam, he was bashing Catholicism. As for Loon Watch, they don't ckaim to be experts on Islam, but do a darn good job in exposing nutjobs like Spencer, so much so that when they call him out, he removes his posts from his own website.

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  45. Traeh,

    With regard to your questions about my use of the term "ruthless": The American Heritage dictionary defines the term as having "no compassion or pity".

    Looking then at those two terms, we see that "compassion" is defined as a deep awareness of the suffering of another coupled with the wish to relieve it; while "pity" is defined as sympathy and sorrow aroused by the misfortune or suffering of another.

    My use of the term is with respect to Muslims. Given the nature of Muslim fanaticism, ultra-violence, depravity and resolve to do whatever it takes to hurt us -- including violence that is not only effective in its horrific toll, but also grotesque in its various horrific qualities -- I don't see how our #1 priority, to protect ourselves from Muslims, needs to integrate "compassion" and "pity" for Muslims. Indeed, I see the pragmatic need for avoiding them -- for the obverse need to cultivate them can lead all too easily to attitudes and policies that could endanger us.

    Muslims do not deserve our pity and compassion. We may regret being forced to do certain things to them insofar as among the ones who deserve no quarter are mingled some who may to one degree or another be less than fully culpable in the disease of Islam that is endangering us and perpetrating horrible things to countless men, women and children now and for decades and centuries (as, tragically, we had to do to millions of innocent Germans and Japanese in WW2). But we should not let such feelings move us to re-prioritize our obligation to protect our societies first and foremost.

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  46. Something strange is going on with the Comments aspect of this blog.

    I have been posting comments on dozens of different forums and blogs over the years, and NEVER have I encountered this strange phenomenon of suddenly my computer being slowed down to a crawl, or paused altogether, while I'm typing in mid-sentence -- after a mere minute or two of typing.

    Again, it bears repeating: this strange phenomenon happens NOWHERE ELSE in my experience of years of posting comments on various different discussion forums and blogs.

    Something definitely hinky is going on here.

    ReplyDelete
  47. To skouti,
    Spencer never claimed to be an authority on Islamic theology, and no one would ever quote him as a primary source. What he does is to quote mainstream Islamic scholars, such as those at al Azhar university in Egypt. Spencer also quotes liberally from "The Reliance of the Traveler", which Danios assured us is obsolete, a judgement contradicted by Al Azhar scholars recently.


    Spencer also feeds us news stories off the mainstream press. Again, we can judge the contents for ourselves. I have never read Spencer saying "Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lying eyes?"

    Danios wrote a very interesting article, pointing out that the Ottoman Empire abolished the death penalty for apostacy in 1844. The article was enlightening, but it highlights the fact that you ignored my question:

    "Of the 53 Muslim countries, name the country or countries where Liberated would not be at serious risk of losing her liberty and life if her identity were exposed."

    As far as Spencer bashing Catholicism, I know nothing about it and couldn't care less. If you can show me a case where he purposely lied, that would be a different story. But, according to your post, every time Spencer was caught in an error, he removed the post. Does that mean that the posts which remain have not been found to contain any obvious errors?

    I think Spencer is an excellent compiler of knowledge about Islam. No one would use his interpretations of Islamic doctrine, but it's not so easy to ignore his citation of authoritative, widely recognized Islamic scholars.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Hesperado,
    You misread my comment. I didn't say nor did I mean that you need to have pity for Muslims. But perhaps the comment was not clearly enough written.

    It doesn't matter. The point I was making was a pretty trivial one anyway.

    ReplyDelete
  49. I wish you peace Liberated.

    Hesperado, I agree very strongly about the issue of tribalism versus individualism. Ultimately, that is what this fight is about.

    But, I have to disagree with your self preservation comments. If we were all intelligent and we could see the future accurately, I would agree with you. Therefore, I have to agree with DM. As long as there are apostates from Islam, we should seek them and help them.

    They are the ones who will become the undoing or changing of Islam. We can not do it from the outside by force. That is probably one of the many fallacies that Liberated is running from.

    I wish nothing but understanding upon all Muslims. They have lost their way (if, indeed, they ever had it). Defeating them in battle is not going to give them that understanding.

    Do the deranged Islamic cults in Afghanistan and Iraq understand us any better today for having conquered them? NO. The only way they can improve is from the inside.

    ReplyDelete
  50. What on earth is an Islamic "scholar"?? Is that anything like a Scientology "scholar"?

    ReplyDelete
  51. To skouti,

    Follow your own logic, If a man cobbled together a religion from stories he had heard from Jewish and Christian scholars. even though he was illiterate, would you happily go along with what he said, even though he changed it as the years went, by to suit himself? Would you blindly accept muhammed's drivel about the sun coming down to earth every night and the statement that the earth is like a carpet? Would you blindly accept that man is made only to be allah's slave with predestination and no freewill whatsoever? Would you freely follow a psychopathic, predatory, murdering loony tune who advocates war never ending until everybody submits to his will, supposedly the will of his made up god?

    ReplyDelete
  52. To Ronaldb:

    You state: "Spencer never claimed to be an authority on Islamic theology," yet earlier you stated "However, Spencer is plainly an authority on Islam,"

    Since we both agree he has no formal qualifications on Islam, he plainly is no expert, scholarly or otherwise, on Islam. Here is a good article exposing spencer's lack of credentials on Islam:

    http://spencerwatch.com/2010/08/11/is-robert-spencer-a-scholar-on-spencer%E2%80%99s-credentials-and-methodology/

    More on spencer's background

    http://spencerwatch.com/about-robert-spencer/

    if nothing else, Liberated would be wise to look at these links and then decide if it is wise to shack up with somebody like spencer (if Liberated is actually a real person......very unlikely)

    ReplyDelete
  53. skoutl,

    1) One doesn't need to be a scholar on Islam to be able to determine various things about Islam.

    2) One doesn't need to be a scholar on Islam to report what various Muslims themselves say about Islam.

    3) If various Muslims say they want to kill us based on Islam, and this keeps happening over and over again throughout history, and is happening more and more right into our present all over the world, then it doesn't matter what "Islam" "really" is based on scholarly study, does it? It matters what Islam is thought to be by the Muslims who want to kill us. And anyone who is getting in the way of our exigent necessity to protect our lives from such Muslims is part of the problem.

    Capisce?

    ReplyDelete
  54. Traeh,

    You said I shouldn't advise our anti-Islamic posture to be "ruthless". I simply pointed out that "ruthless" means "without pity" and that your advice against our being "ruthless" is logically tantamount to extending pity to Muslims. Whether you agree we should be ruthless, but shouldn't say we are being ruthless, is another matter. I didn't get the sense that this is what you meant (of even that prescription, though, in its various forms couched by various people in the still inchoate anti-Islam movement, I am beginning to tire; and frankly consider to be grievously counter-productive).

    ReplyDelete
  55. blangwort,

    "If we were all intelligent and we could see the future accurately, I would agree with you."

    It's precisely because we can't see the future that I advise what I do. If the risks weren't great, it would be another matter. But we are talking about innumerable fanatics whom we cannot identify pullulating out of a vast sprawling motile world-wide population, who are plotting to mass murder us in places, and at times, we cannot predict -- and using means we cannot predict, including poisoning of water and/or food supplies; nuclear weapons of various kinds (the "suitcase nuke" is not a science fiction but is a viable possibility); biological weapons; chemical weapons; and various forms of suicidal conventional terror attacks in busy public places.

    While we can't predict the future, it is safe to say, given everything we know about Muslims, that there are innumerable numbers among them who profoundly, fanatically desire to mass murder us in various ways and wreak property destruction, with the goal of trying to destabilize our societies (as well as simply the demonic pleasure of hurting us).

    This probability is only going to get worse, as anyone can tell that the Muslim world is undergoing a worldwide revival of its fanatical dream of supremacist expansionism and assertion of hateful intolerance against those they think are hampering Islam.

    Given the above, and given the mass numbers of Muslims immigrating into the West and moving around throughout the West in various capacities, from being taxi drivers and store clerks to being policemen, firemen, soldiers, academics and politicians -- with untold numbers of their women giving birth to new Muslims -- we do not have the luxury of expecting that a sufficient number of Muslims are going to transform into non-Muslims or "Moderate Muslims" in time to prevent the horrific terror attacks many of them are surely planning against us for the decades ahead.

    When such terrible things are likely, and when we don't know the future, we must err on the side of safety & caution, not reckless hope.

    All you have to do is read Jihad Watch for one solid month -- for any given month is horribly repeated the month before, and all the months before going back years -- to realize what I am saying is grievously cogent.

    The fact that I have to keep reminding people of this -- even people who are supposedly awake to the evil and danger of Islam -- is itself aggrieving.

    ReplyDelete
  56. To Hesperado,

    Out of the 1.5 billion muslims in the world, how many of them would you consider to be a threat to your continued existence ? Also did you see the links I posted on spencer showing what a fraud he really is......should make you stop looking at jihad watch for a while

    ReplyDelete
  57. Liberated,

    I'm happy that you have liberated yourself from the social conformity of Islamic society. You have taken a courageous move by publishing this blog.

    ReplyDelete
  58. skouti,

    It is remarkable that no point in your numerous comments in this thread do you give a supportive statement to Liberated. I therefore ask you directly:

    1. Assuming her case is genuine, do you support Liberated's right to freely and publicly leave Islam, and for her to publicly criticize Islam and Muhammad in explaining her reasons for leaving Islam?

    2. Do you acknowledge that apostates of Islam today are significantly at risk of being harmed in societies or communities in which there are some Muslims who are willing to carry out (officially or unofficially) the harsh punishments against apostates?

    3. You allege that Liberated has made a mistake by seeking assistance and support from Robert Spencer. Request: Please provide then the name of an alternative person/organization, with Islamic qualifications you consider adequate, who/which could provide assistance and support.

    I look forward to your replies.

    ReplyDelete
  59. To Greenforest:

    Why would I or anyone support a fake like Liberated ? You ever heard of the phrase "make your bed and lie in it" ? This is someone who decided to leave a religion and the first thing s/he does ? Starts a blog......hello....then conveniently blogs some more via a loon like spencer (who spawned Anders Brevik)......alarm bells should be ringing by now. OK, lets suspend reality for a moment and assume Liberated is a real person....so s/he has left Islam, congrats....by all accounts you sound like a person Islam could survive without. So good luck to you and don't be such a HATER. Is it any wonder such folks get beaten up when they decide to leave a religion, then start bad mouthing it.......no sense whatsoever.

    ReplyDelete
  60. skouti,

    I take it then that your answer to question 1 is, overall, a "no"--if Liberated is genuinely an apostate, you don't support her right to freely and publicly criticize Muhammad (e.g., because you believe that would be hate).

    And your responses to questions 2 and 3?

    ReplyDelete
  61. To: Greenforest:

    As I stated previously on this site, if Liberated has the "balls" to come out as an apostate then kudos to them but all s/he has done is start a blog with a known Islam hater like spencer or more the case spencer has invented this blog and actually there is no such person like Liberated. If you decided to leave a religion, what is the first steps you would think about ??? A blog would not be on my priority list of things to worry about.

    ReplyDelete
  62. skouti,

    Before I reply to that, I would like to read your replies to questions 2 and 3.

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  63. To Greenforest:

    Have no interest in providing support to a fraud blog post dreamt up by spencer so really cannot help you with your questions. But you heard of the phrase "When in Rome......" So if this Liberated person wants to be an apostate then crack on but don't hide in the shadows and cry like a baby on the internet

    ReplyDelete
  64. skouti,

    Again, you are avoiding the questions. Let's put aside the question of whether Liberated is real. You have already answered question 1. Question 2 does not even mention Liberated, so there is no excuse for avoiding it. And Question 3 can be answered in regards to apostates in general.

    Will you respond to questions 2 and 3?

    ReplyDelete
  65. skouti,

    Let me begin by pointing out that once again, you ignored by question: Of the 53 Muslim countries in the UN and OIC, in which country would Liberated not be in dire danger of being killed?

    I think any defense of Islam that does not deal with this question is fraudulent on its face.

    I read the articles whose links you supplied.

    On Spencer's qualifications, we find out that Spencer has written no peer-reviewed academic articles on Islam, and that Spencer has received no formal training on Islam by Islamic scholars. Very devastating, except that we knew that before. Also, some of Spencer's references are questionable, like the claim that a majority of women imprisoned in Pakistan are there as a result of being raped.

    Also, your link claimed that Spencer is fanatically against Islam because of his family's experience in Turkey.

    Your links claim that Islam is dynamically changing, with many interpretations and an active ijtahad.

    Here is another question. Are the dynamic interpretations of Islam coming from Muslim countries or from countries in which Islam is a small minority, such as the US and Canada? In fact, is it not true that once the proportion of Muslims becomes appreciable, it becomes very dangerous for any Muslim to propose a non-standard interpretation of Islam. In Pakistan, it is a criminal offense for Ahmadis to claim to be Muslims. Is this an example of ijtahad?

    You attempted to use my own words against me. I stated that Spencer is an authority on Islam, but not Islamic theology. Perhaps I should clarify the distinction for you. If I were a convert to Islam, and wished to know the fine points of my new belief system, I would not go to Spencer. I would go to an Islamic authority for information on when to pray, why to pray, and the like.

    If I wanted to have information on the spread of Islam, the beliefs and texts impelling it, and the possible consequences for our freedoms as we know them, Spencer would be a first choice. He would not be my only choice. Everyone has his own unique interpretations, and everyone is fallible. Spencer is no different.

    I think Liberated made an excellent choice in working through Spencer. He will help her spread her story, while keeping her identity safe. The only ones who want her to be exposed are the Islamists who post on this blog.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Greenforest,

    Good job on nailing skouti with your succinct questions and posts. You have exposed him as not caring in the least about the well-being of Liberated, or any apostate.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Painful indeed to be nailed by two of spencers erstwhile sidekicks, ronald and greenforest........ouch, sides are splitting from the hilarity by reading their posts. Will be equally humorous once they discover they have been duped into supporting a fictitious creation. i for one am looking forward to Spencers next blog post.

    ReplyDelete
  68. skouti,

    Your arguments are progressively becoming more ad hominem and less substantive. Your arguments against Spencer are the same.

    We have dealt with all the questions you raised. You have ignored our questions which are inconvenient. Your argument now rests entirely on the assertion that Liberated is a fictitious identity.

    Which brings up an interesting question. Spencer's credibility would indeed be seriously compromised if it turned out he had faked the entry. Spencer is already a best-selling author, a speaker much in demand, the creator of a very successful blogsite, and influential enough to have two separate websites devoted to attacking him.

    So, creating a fictitious identity would be a high-risk, very low return venture. He would have much to lose, and very little to gain. Why in the world do you think he would make up a person like Liberated? The assertion doesn't pass the test of reason.

    ReplyDelete
  69. skouti,

    You continue to avoid the questions and are preoccupied with Spencer. Why not answer questions 2 and 3 (in regards to apostates in general)?

    ReplyDelete
  70. Ronaldb, you do appreciate that reason and spencer are not natural bedfellows. Irony aside, please read liberateds first post again and you will see spencers fingerprint all over it..........all the Islam hating stuff you would expect to read on jihad watch. Also how is it that all of Spencers apostates are such haters? Is it the case they all end up in such a state after interacting with Spencer. As for liberated being in danger of death, why doesn't he just move to another country?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Liberated - good to see you here, speaking out loud. Even if this isn't to be understood by Taqiyya-artists such as Skouti, who thinks it strange that an apostate would want to form a blog - yet presumably thinks nothing of the hordes of converts to Islam speaking on youtube videos.

    Unlike some dhimmi leaders (even spiritual ones), there are many who have no qualms about supporting those such as yourself who long for freedom. I myself spent my early life in a totalitarian state where speaking out would get you locked up in prison or maybe even killed - but even that totalitarian state seems like nothing compared to the totalitarian life lived by those in Islam. May you stay safe, and stay free, wherever you are!

    ReplyDelete
  72. Glad to see the green infidel acknowledge the fact that folks joining islam are far greater than those leaving Islam, kinda puts a dent in the islam hating theory of Islam being evil etc

    ReplyDelete
  73. skoutl,

    Spencer essentially does 4 distinct, though closely related things:

    1) publishes reports about Muslims from other sources

    2) publishes reports (usually from other sources) of what various Muslims write and say

    3) discusses the various problems Muslims are causing based on #1 and #2, as well as on #4 (see below)

    4) reproduces, in a discursive fashion interpolated usually with unremarkable paraphrastic interpretation, the writings of various Muslims of history -- including Muslim scholars of Islamic law, Muslim historians, Muslim exegetes of Islamic holy texts, and the Islamic holy texts themselves where pertinent.

    It is only in part with #3, in the context of #4, where Spencer may sometimes err, insofar as his contention or implication that mainstream normative Islam -- not as defined solely by the holy texts of the Koran and the Sahih Hadiths themselves but also by the legal theory and codes based on legal theory, and the practice based on the theory and codes, as well as more broadly though amorphously the behaviors of large numbers of Muslims in various diverse places around the world -- is itself hostile to non-Muslims in terms of violent intolerance and supremacist expansionism.

    That there exist now, and throughout the history of Islam, innumerable Muslims who express in words and deeds such hostility to non-Muslims in terms of violent intolerance and supremacist expansionism -- and who themselves claim to base their expressions in Islam -- is indisputable fact. The only leeway for dispute here consists in the following two sets of questions:

    a) Are these innumerable Muslims expressing mainstream, normative Islam? Or are they expressing a minority view that does not represent the Islam as defined by the Koran and Sunna, the Islam as theorized by the vast majority of Islamic representatives (clerics, legal scholars, etc.), and the Islam practiced by the vast majority of Muslims?

    b) Whether we can answer (a) definitively or not, the following questions are pertinent:

    i) are the problems caused by an indeterminable number of Muslims around the world in their inciting words and in their deeds -- both based so they claim on Islam -- of a sufficient magnitude and metastasis to render them an exigent concern for non-Muslims?

    ii) How exigent is this concern?

    iii) What should be done about it?

    iv) And closely related to these questions is the question, are Muslims sufficiently addressing the problems that are emanating out of their Islam?

    With respect to #1 and #2 above, we have ample evidence to suggest persuasively that the questions of (b) are to be answered (i) Yes, (ii) Very exigent, (iii) Measures more serious and substantive than we are taking currently, and (iv) No, respectively.

    Note on #1:

    This is the main activity of Jihad Watch. It probably comprises the bulk of what Spencer does. A simple sample of one month's sources on Jihad Watch verifies that for the most part, Spencer is not making stuff up, but simply re-publishing from other sources.

    Consider the month of November of this year. In my next comment after this one, I will simply list the sources from which he and his editor Marisol derived their reports.

    ReplyDelete
  74. Hi skouti,

    You're still avoiding questions 2 and 3, I see.

    ReplyDelete
  75. This is a list of sources for the reports re-published on Jihad Watch in the month of November, 2011. The list is nearly complete. I left out pieces that were mere interpretation essays, or blog pieces advertising or reporting on Spencer's tour of Australia, and the like. Such types of pieces constitute a tiny fraction of the overall output.

    While some sources on the following list may be arguably of dubious reportorial merit (e.g., World Net Daily), and the credibility of others perhaps need to be further clarified (e.g., such Third World news sources as Compass News Direct or Free Malaysia Today, etc.) they are outweighed in quantity by the reputable sources:

    The Times (of London)

    Fox News (no one of credibility disputes that Fox News is an unremarkably mainstream and credible news source)

    Associated Press

    ANSAMed (

    Asia News

    Voice of America

    Minivan News

    Evening Standard

    Associated Press

    Yahoo News

    Evening Standard

    CNN

    Bloomberg News

    Jakarta Globe

    AdnKronos International

    Compass Direct News

    BBC News

    Associated Press

    Associated Press

    The Telegraph

    The Daily Mail

    Los Angeles Times

    MSNBC

    The Guardian

    Associated Press

    Associated Press

    CNN

    Indo-Asian News Service

    Free Malaysia Today

    The Telegraph

    The Telegraph

    The Malaysian Insider

    The Telegraph

    The Guardian

    Haaretz

    The Telegraph

    Agence France-Presse

    Agence France-Presse

    Agence France-Presse

    Associated Press

    The Independent

    YNet News

    Reuters

    The West Australian

    Haveeru News Service

    BBC News

    CNN

    Asia News

    NewsCore

    Herald Sun

    The Daily Trust via AllAfrica.com

    AAP

    World Net Daily

    RFI

    CNN

    The Daily Mail

    Associated Press

    The Jerusalem Post

    The Jerusalem Post

    BosNewsLife

    Agence France-Presse

    Asia News

    Associated Press

    World Net Daily

    Detroit News

    Asia News

    CNN

    ANSAmed

    Reuters

    The Uptowner

    CNN

    The Jerusalem Post

    Express Tribune

    Associated Press

    Agence France-Press

    Reuters

    Asia Times

    Washington Post

    BBC News

    ReplyDelete
  76. List continued from previous post:

    Asia News

    Reuters

    Asia News

    The Guardian

    ABC

    New York Daily News

    Washington Post

    ABC News

    CNN

    Associated Press

    ABC News

    The Nation

    CNN

    Commentary

    Agence France-Presse

    New York Daily News

    The Daily Mail

    The New York Times

    The Hill

    The Daily Mail

    Jakarta Post

    Al-Arabiya

    Reuters

    Associated Press

    Associated Press

    Associated Press

    Christian Science Monitor

    The Malaysian Insider

    Reuters

    Reuters

    New York Post

    The Jerusalem Post

    Reuters

    Agence France-Presse

    Asia News

    Reuters

    Agence France-Presse

    BBC News

    BBC News

    Bloomberg News

    Associated Press

    Haaretz

    Associated Press

    RIA Novosti

    Agence France-Presse

    Agence France-Presse

    ANSAmed

    The Guardian

    World Net Daily

    IPT News

    Charleston Post and Courier

    Associated Press

    Washington Post

    Reuters

    National Review Online

    Associated Press

    Associated Press

    Reuters

    The Telegraph

    All Voices

    Boston Globe

    CNN

    Associated Press

    Jakarta Press

    Asia News

    AFP

    The Media Line

    AKI

    Time Magazine

    Bloomberg News

    Associated Press

    Israel National News

    Reuters

    Associated Press

    Bikyamasr

    The Telegraph

    MEMRI

    Herald Sun

    Reuters

    Compass Direct News

    Compass Direct News

    Compass Direct News

    The Jerusalem Post

    Associated Press

    Agence France-Presse

    Washington Post

    Agence France-Presse

    The Daily Mail

    CNS News

    Agence France-Presse

    Reuters

    UPI

    YNet News

    Associated Press

    The Jerusalem Post

    The Washington Times

    Associated Press

    BBC News

    Asia News

    Asia News

    Asia News

    World Net Daily

    BBC News

    Jakarta Globe

    CBS Los Angeles

    Al Quds

    Express Tribune

    Associated Press

    YNet News

    AFP

    Associated Press

    Compass Direct News

    Ahlul Bayt News Agency

    The Daily Caller

    Norway News

    Sydney Morning Herald

    Express Tribune

    Al Arabiya

    Miami Herald

    The Telegraph

    Associated Press

    New York Times

    Associated Press

    MSNBC

    Agence France-Presse

    Agence France-Presse

    ReplyDelete
  77. skouti,

    It looks like you're not going to reconsider answering my questions 2 and 3. That's your choice, even though they seemed to me to be very easy questions to answer. Anyways, I think you provided everything we needed to know about you when you said the following about Liberated:

    "[...] Is it any wonder such folks get beaten up when they decide to leave a religion, then start bad mouthing it.......no sense whatsoever."
    December 27, 2011 6:56 AM

    Thanks for your time, skouti. Happy Holidays, and stay out of trouble.

    ReplyDelete
  78. Greenforest,

    Let's see your answers to your own Qs, if they are easy to answer.

    Happy holidays to you and please dont be a hater of Islam or anything else. There are enough problems in the world.

    ReplyDelete
  79. I was worried that my two long posts might have provided distraction cover for skoutl to continue his obfuscations and evasions -- but I see that he managed to maintain them valiantly, anyway.

    While I consider skoutl a waste of time insofar as he is not a rational human being, my posts to him were felicitous in motivating me to articulate some useful things which, with some minor modifications here and there, I have now put on my blog, The Hesperado.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Hesperado, you are one sad puppy. Did you read the links i provided that expose Spencer for what he really is. Here they are for your benefit:

    Www.spencerwatch.com and
    Www.loonwatch.com

    Please add them to your own blog

    ReplyDelete
  81. skouti,

    I think you already know the gist of my answers (to questions posed at December 27, 2011 5:52 AM), but here they are:

    1. Yes, yes.
    2. Yes.
    3. Ayaan Hirsi Ali (individual); Former Muslims United (organization).

    See? Easy.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Greenforest:

    Here are my answers:

    2. No
    3. If liberated is a real person, surely s/he should speak to his/her parents. They won't kill liberated will they. Would not bother with hirsi Ali as she has been outed as a liar. Apprently she lied to gain immigration status etc.

    ReplyDelete
  83. If skoutl desires to persuade those who differ from him of the cogency of his position, he sure is behaving strangely. The content and manner of everything he writes has the powerful effect of undermining the cogency of his position.

    It's almost as if he wants to be ineffective. If so, that, at least, would be the sole thing at which he succeeds.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Hesperado, unlike you, I don't feel the need to post stuff twice. Once from you is quite enough......thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Hey skouti
    When are you going to address the questions I asked you? Is because you can't? I'll take that for a yes then. Your logic is like muhamhead's night journey. The journey he claimed he made to a mosque that wasn't even built for another 500 years after his descent into Hell, where he has been ever since.

    ReplyDelete
  86. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  87. In Sahih al-Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection, Muhammad said,

    "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

    Various other canonical hadiths attest that Muhammad called for death to those who leave Islam. That's why even today all the schools of Islamic law prescribe death for apostasy from Islam.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Hesperado, excellent argument you presented against skouti, and done without ad hominem. His responses are mostly ad hominem and rhetoric rather than specific charges.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Hi Shakila

    You are a very brave individual who inspires us all. Please keep safe and continue being part of the beautiful species of humanity. Keep safe and keep doing this beautiful work. The world need to know more about what is happening with the so called the "Religion of Peace". This way you will help many people who are still or might get trapped. God bless you!

    ReplyDelete
  90. How pathetic are the commentators inviting liberated one to their religions. I would accept if an atheist or agnostic invites her to the logic and reasoning if they claim religions lack logic and reason. But calling to other religions...means ran away from the police caught by the villagers. How pathetic.

    You will have to pray in all religions
    you will have to obey God in all religions
    You will have to maintain your righteousness
    You will have to pay for your sins

    So what's the point in leaving Islam and embracing another??????

    ReplyDelete
  91. skouti,

    I first want to note that you have not yet refuted any of Liberated's major substantive allegations against Islam and Muhammad. For example, she described Muhammad as "sadistic, misogynistic, pedophile, anti-semite, a bandit." Now, Islam apologists do have a set of apologetics that they use to defend against these allegations. I simply note that you have not replied in substance to any of Liberated's quite serious allegations against Islam and Muhammad. Why not?

    Secondly, to address some of your claims and assumptions in this thread:

    A). On the one hand, you deny that public apostates of Islam are in danger. You cite no evidence to support your claim that they are safe to criticize Islam and Muhammad publicly in Islamic societies and communities. (Your answer to my question 2, above, was a categorical "no"). On the other hand, you contradict this assumption quite dramatically when you condone the "beating up" of apostates who criticize Islam or Muhammad--a response which shows that you assume that apostates are at least at significant risk of harm. A reminder of what you said: "Is it any wonder such folks get beaten up when they decide to leave a religion, then start bad mouthing it"

    skouti, in order to clarify your position on the safety of public apostates, I'm going to ask you to decide whether they are at risk of getting beaten up, or whether they are subject to no such risk.

    ReplyDelete
  92. reply to skouti,

    B.) You also claim that Liberated is not really an apostate but is some kind of fabrication, even suggesting Liberated is actually Robert Spencer. In support of this conjecture, you cite as "evidence" that "This [Liberated] is someone who decided to leave a religion and the first thing s/he does ? Starts a blog......hello....then conveniently blogs some more via a loon like spencer".

    First, according to Liberated's account on this blog, and part of which is available on FaithFreedom, starting a blog was not in fact the first thing she did upon leaving the religion. Thus your assumption here is false, indicating that at minimum you have not actually familiarized yourself with her account. According to her account, she communicated with others (e.g., Ali Sina) before ever discussing the idea of a blog. This is easily verified by checking the Faithfreedom site. Furthermore, she contacted a priest (who lived near her) for assistance prior to contacting Spencer. Finally, when she did contact Spencer this was not unreasonable, because she was familiar with Spencer's work as an Islam critic who supports freedom of conscience and freedom of expression, and who actively supports apostates of Islam and Islam critics, and who would be able to provide some assistance such as arranging for this blog to be set up and posting Liberated's articles, and so by sending her articles to him she had a relatively safe outlet through which she could express her views on Islam. Spencer does in fact have a history of publishing on his website some articles/writings by apostates.

    I find this story to be plausible. In contrast, your conjecture seems to require some sort of implausible conspiracy or collusion between Spencer and Ali Sina in "fabricating" Liberated. That is, your conjecture requires that both Spencer and Ali Sina are lying about Liberated. Why would they need to do that? Clearly, they don't. Their sites report on an almost daily basis from mainstream news sources about the dangers to non-Muslims such as public apostates and Islam critics. The stories of numerous ex-Muslims, including famous ones, are already documented at both websites (JW and FaithFreedom). And as RonaldB pointed out above, Spencer is a well-known best-selling author who would have much to lose if he were found to have concocted "Liberated." You know there would be all kinds of people ready to pounce on him in the media if he had done so. If Spencer has nothing to gain financially and reputation-wise, and a lot to lose, by concocting an ex-Muslim, why would he do so? That's not plausible. The evidence before us to this point indicates that it is more likely that Liberated really is an apostate as she said she is. There are "1.5 billion Muslims", so it should not be surprising that we find some who want to leave the religion and that in the course of doing so they would be in contact with sympathetic people who are involved with this issue.

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  93. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  94. reply to skouti,

    C.) skouti wrote to RonaldB, "...please read liberateds first post again and you will see spencers fingerprint all over it..........all the Islam hating stuff you would expect to read on jihad watch."

    I'm familiar with both JW and Faithfreedom. Liberated's writing is consistent with someone who has been influenced by the writings of Ali Sina--which is in fact consistent with Liberated's story. Liberated also acknowledges an influence from Spencer's (and others') writings. To suggest that "Spencer's fingerprints are all over it" is to imply a kind of paranoid view, whereby Spencer is some kind of crafty evil individual who has nothing better to do than to make up stories about apostates--as if he'd need to do so (see above).

    D). skouti wrote: "As for liberated being in danger of death, why doesn't he just move to another country?"

    First, Liberated is a "she." Skouti's error indicates that skouti has not read Liberated's story carefully in the first place. This again raises questions about whether skouti is in any position to be commenting intelligently on Liberated's case, since he does not seem to have a grasp of the story which he purports to challenge.

    E). skouti: "Also how is it that all of Spencers apostates are such haters?"

    We can dismiss this statement on at least three grounds. 1. It has not been established that the apostates Spencer cites are "haters." 2. Even if they were "haters," skouti offers no substantive reasons as to why they would be in the wrong for "hating" the elements of Islam which they criticize. 3. Skouti is committing a massive equivocation fallacy with the word "hate," whereby he believes that all criticism of Islam is hate, whereas he surely knows that the normal and relevant usage of the word hate does not refer to mere criticism of religious or political ideologies and leaders.

    F). skouti wrote: "Painful indeed to be nailed by two of spencers erstwhile sidekicks, ronald and greenforest"

    Whether or not RonaldB and Greenforest are "sidekicks" of Spencer is irrelevant. Skouti appears to be making a diversion away from having to address the substantive points made by RonaldB and Greenforest. In any case, it is not established that they are sidekicks of Spencer--a claim which again seems to imply a kind of conspiratorial control to Spencer whereby he can send his "people" to defend his "creation." (Apparently we are not "creations" of Spencer, only "sidekicks" employed in the defense of the "creations." Perhaps skouti assumes this because he guesses plausibly that Spencer wouldn't have time to create all these personages. Yet I find it implausible that skouti really believes that Spencer would have time to "create" an apostate writer). We aren't Spencer's "sidekicks," unless you consider anyone who happens to read Jihadwatch to be one of his sidekicks.

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  95. Between the posts of Greenforest, RonaldB, stephen, Traeh and me with regard to this "skoutl" character -- in addition to his behavior on these comments threads of this blog -- it should be excruciatingly clear to anyone of elementary intelligence that,

    a) concerning the substance of the claims "skoutl" makes -- every last one of them -- he hasn't a leg to stand on; and

    b) concerning his standing as a human being endowed with reason which would serve to distinguish him from the mute animal kingdom (other than unintelligible and incoherent grunts and groans), he is found wanting.

    We should, at least, thank Allah that he falls far short of being clever enough to be s Sophist -- which would only serve to entangle us in more obfuscations and tap-dancing to waste our time and infuriate us, Elmer-Fudd-vs.-a-wily-and-grinning-Bugs-Bunny-wise.

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  96. Cogent, wonderfully measured, and tireless, Greenforest. Kudos. Kudos.

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  97. THANK you for a powerful testimony - AND for a web site that enables me to share it on Facebook, in email and any way I can!

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