I don't know what it will take to make people believe in me and my story. I have been writing this blog for the last one year, and still some people doubt if I really exist and some even accuse me of being Robert Spencer's creation and that he made me up and he is the one writing the blog himself.
Now for a moment if we believe that assumption, it would mean my friend Bob has a very wild imagination to put himself in the shoes of a woman who happens to be an ex Muslim. Some people here accused me after reading my last blog that my English is too American. Well, what else do you expect? I have grown up with American TV shows. As my fiancé always says, trashy American soap operas, but I don't agree with him, because I owe what I am now to all these American TV shows which I have been watching since I was a toddler. Dallas, Falcon Crest, Dynasty, Magnum, Fall Guy, Knight Rider, Small Wonder, Bill Cosby show, the Jeffersons, Different Strokes, Bold and the Beautiful, Melrose Place, Friends, Beverly Hills, Sex and the City, Desperate Housewives, Grey's Anatomy, and the list goes on and on.
So just think using your brains for a change, if I don't get influenced with American TV and speak American English then what else do I use? Mandarin or Spanish? Its funny how people try to look for loopholes to prove that I am not real, and frankly I really don't know how am I going to prove to everyone that I exist and I am not Robert Spencer's creation. OK here is what I will do. I will call everyone personally, whoever is brave enough to give their number. I will call each and everyone of you. What do to say to that, my fearful friends?
You can email your phone number to kshakila13@gmail.com.
Bwahahaha........awwww the poor BITCH so wants to be believed
ReplyDeleteNot feeling the luv, even from your own supporters.........man how grim is that? I mean after all the nonsense that has been posted by this fake blogger.........it gets taken apart with relative ease.........toooo funny
Here have a read for yourselves
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comments
The comments are brilliant.
So folks rather than giving your number to this LOSER, let's discuss where it went Soooo horribly wrong for spencer/sina and what can they do?
Apart from getting your number and calling you back, ROFLMAO
:)
LOOOL The islamist bigot is talking like a dumb kid...
DeleteNo rational argument nor witty jokes for her?
Nor any decent grammar...
How old are you? 10? 9? Glad your MooHamMad wasn't a faggot, otherwise you would be his "Aisha".
Why not leave your phone # Skouti? Do YOU exist?
Delete@pedro
Deleteyou don't have to say something about"MUHAMMAD" (pbuh)each time you meet a muslim,or speak sarcastically about him, (pbuh), each time some muslim says something stupid ,and take it as if "MUHAMMAD" (pbuh) said it ,or that he tought it to him.and also you don't need to talk about his wife "AISHA" (RA),she is the mother of all muslims.
No more disrespect guys!
Maybe when muslims start showing respect for other religions, for women, for gays, for humanity - maybe then non-muslims will respect islam. Respect must be earned.
Deletetarekg
DeleteMooHamMad, piss be upon hum, never earned respected with ethics, just with violence and babbling.
ahh! emmm! ahuh! emmmmm! thanks for sahring this shit!
Deleteand about"piss be upon hum" man you need some spelling.
prophet "MUHAMMAD" (PBUH) was,is and will always be the greatest and the most influential man on earth ! live with it!
look at you bitch supporting a hooker and insulting a great man what a shame!!
ekhhhh tffffffffff fro the bottom of my balls! huhahahaha
You are doing fine girl, don't worry about it.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason they pretend that you're not real is to pacify their own twisted minds. It's the only way they can handle the truth you've exposed.
ReplyDelete"pacify"..."twisted minds"....."the truth you've exposed"!
Deleteman!do you think muslims are troubled now because of this blog,only three muslims ,I guess, know this blog, I think only I,skouti,and friday know about it ,and we're enjoying our time here reading and responding to this caged one.
"man!do you think muslims are troubled now because of this blog"
DeleteYet here you are. Repeatedly.
Only for the comedy value this blog provides but for noddy lad its all very serious :-)
DeleteThe fewer Muslims that know about this blog the better, since for every Muslim that knows about it, the greater the chance that the writer will be murdered.
DeleteI know she claims that she is safe, because UAE is such a modern, peaceful place, but I do not share her optimism.
No matter what country you are in, there is no such thing as a modern, peaceful Muslim; there are only Muslims who are currently participating in jihad, and Muslims who are not currently participating in jihad. And there is no reason to assume that the ones in the latter group will never decide to join their coreligionists in the former group.
Do not do that under any circumstances. Its one way your enemies can get at you.
ReplyDeleteI know its tough under your circumstances but it doesn't matter if people believe you or not. Believe in yourself.
@Rechard
DeleteHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE she used to be real ,but now, she's no longer you know why? I KILLED HER!
Even in jest, this comments PROVES you to be the savage anti-jihadists claim you and your ilk to be.
Deletetarekg
DeleteOnly a lapdog of MooHamMad, piss be upon him, would say something so childish, more childish than my comment.
mlnjuhviujçyvgcfuuo ok?
DeleteI really hate these anti-truth faggs! and by the way I'm not that serious , I'm just responding and reacting for sports you empty head faggs!
DeleteI will note that the Muslim above calls you a "bitch." One of the most troubling characteristics of Islam, in my estimation, is the constant derogatory and degrading treatment of women by Muslims. How could skouti claim to represent a beneficent god and a holy religion and call a woman by such a name? One need look no further than the behavior of Islam's adherents to discover the real character of Islam.
ReplyDelete@Cyril
DeleteYes ,and the christians don't use the word "bitch"because they represent a religion that values women, it's like the muslims invented it!!!! man you really are f**ked up!
Ignore it. Why be bothered with these devils. You know how toxic they are.
ReplyDeleteI think she's doing it as a favor to Robert, which I find very noble of her...if an utter waste of time, where any Muslim is involved.
DeleteThis is a distraction. My problem with Shakila is not that I suspect she's a phony, but that taking her words as an accurate description of her actions and thoughts and feelings, I find her strangely disconnected from the evil danger of Islam and of the Muslims whose minds are infected by it -- including her own family. Certainly, she has a degree of misgivings about that, but not nearly enough for someone who should know better -- and who would know better than an intelligent person who grew up as a Muslim, in a Muslim family, in a Muslim society?
ReplyDeleteThe only conclusions to explain her strange state of denial are either 1) that she's lying and/or she's a fabrication; or 2) that she suffers from a rather common type of Stockholm Syndrome denial akin to schizophrenia -- rather common among islamochristian dhimmis, "reformist" Muslims, and some ex-Muslims.
I can't come up with a third option to explain her strange denial of the evil danger of her family and of Muslims who would help her family.
I can.
Delete3. She's not in denial. She loves them and is grieving for them, but knows how helpless she is right now and is choosing not to show it here. Can't say I blame her for that; it'd be just another vulnerability the scumbags here would ridicule her for.
I choose to believe Robert's testimony that she is real. And if she's real, she's in great pain. Consider that.
Your explanation would fit for a normally dysfunctional family -- perhaps the father is a wifebeater; perhaps the parents are alcoholics; perhaps one of her brothers is a gang mbmber.
DeleteBut Muslims are not normal people, and their Islam is not normal. It's off the charts diseased and dangerous. And if you don't know that, you simply haven't been carefully reading and digesting the mountains of data which Jihad Watch has been reporting for years. Indeed, simply one month of Jihad Watch reports should disabuse anyone of elementary intelligence and an open mind of the tendency to frame every Muslim problem as an ordinary human problem -- as you just did.
Here's the thing. I've known British people (and Scandinavians) who've watched just as many American TV shows as you apparently have and they don't write 100% idiomatic American English. In case of the non-native speakers they're very fluent but even the most fluent don't write like Americans (it's a subtle thing that goes beyond spelling and isolated turns of phrase).
ReplyDeleteNow I can believe that lots of 'Muslims' don't personally care much for the religion, which is deeply unappealing in many ways, not least the intellectual stagnation and societal backwardness that correlate with having a muslim majority. I can also believe most of them don't make a big deal about it because of the whole 'kill ex-muslims' thing.
That's why it's not surprising that many of the most enthusiastic muslims live in societies not shackled with muslim majority beliefs - they don't know first hand the toll that Islamic theory and practice(!) can take on a society.
If you are real then be very careful. The majority of victims of honor killings also assumed that they were safe and their families truly loved them....
It can be a nasty shock to find out that familial ties are not absolute and parental love is not unconditional but is in fact extremely conditional but that's the true way of the world. Be careful.
P.S.: Of course, I choose the second option I noted above.
ReplyDeleteIt's remarkable to me that in all the entries Shakila has published, she has only addressed (whether directly or indirectly) the #1 charge, and she hasn't adequately addressed #2.
whoopiii fcukin dooooo - I am impressed by the level of "support" for the FAKE MURDTARD........how many of you clowns replied with your number ? NONE/ZERO/NADA
ReplyDeletethe most hilarious aspect is that spencer/sina posted this latest diatribe begging/pleading/imploring folks to leave their phone numbers on this blog........as if anyone would post such information. Realising this fcuk up, spencer/sina now amended the post with an email address for the fake blogger........brilliant!!!!
You couldn't make this stuff up even if you tried eh :)
So lets recap......spencer/sina have a real problem i.e. how do they convince their own supporters that the fake blogger is actually a real person because they have clocked this blog for what it is......a vehicle for spencer/sina to spew their HATRED of Islam and guess what, right from the start, it has spectacularly backfired on them and comically they have to keep posting explanations about the fake blogger.......how sad is that ? I mean if this was a real person then there is no need to post your email address begging us to leave our phone numbers so spencer/sina can arrange for one of their gang to call you to pretend to be shakila.......think about it, but not too hard, LOL
Also spencer/sina's supporters believe shakila to be a "jihadist" in disguise.......oh man thats gonna HURT isn't it. At one point folks stated the fake blogger was a LESBIAN.......all true, just read this fake site from the start to see how unconvinced everyone was (not just the usual suspects).
Of course spencer/sina did not help their cause by not allowing the fake blogger not to reply to any posts. A real person would have replied but that would mean spencer/sina having to spend time monitoring this fakr blog and they could not even manage that.
#EPIC FAIL to spencer/sina........hurt much FOOLS ?
Yo fake BITCH, try this number - 0800 - FUCK - OFF!!! let me know how you get on :)
It is common for the muslims to attack their opponents with lies and slanders. They seem to be very proud if they can make lies on people, and eventually they will believe their own lies.
ReplyDeleteMuslims are perpetrating the Biggest Lie the world has ever seen. It's called Islam.
Deletepfffffffffffffff! wow !! vous n'etes qu'une bande des pd hhhhhhhhhaaaaah!
Delete"It is common for the muslims to attack their opponents with lies and slanders."
DeleteIf you say so . . . yet you present no evidence?
Questions against "Shakila" are not just mere accusations - but well founded doubts - where unlike you reasons are given.
So dismissing them with mere statements like yours do not work.
On two occasions in the last year, neo-fascist left-wing men have pretended to be muslim women who were lesbians, and how cool and progressive being gay was in an islamic society.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/a-gay-girl-in-damascus-comes-clean/2011/06/12/AGkyH0RH_story.html
They got international media coverage e.g. on "her" being a hero to the Syrian "struggle" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/06/gay-girl-damascus-syria-blog
But of course, the mainstream media completely ignore the story of someone who leaves islam, and the reasons why. They also ignore anti-islamic gay groups like the EDL LGBT Division. http://www.facebook.com/EDL.LGBT.Division.
The media are only interested in stories that push their agenda. No matter how fake.
Muslims can't stand it when someone leaves Islam. Insults, lies, threats and slanders but no logical reason argument is their response.
ReplyDeleteIt is because they know that their belief is weak and full of contractions with no reason, evidence or logic. They convince themselves that the "fastest growing religion" lie is a clear proof and a sign from Allah. To learnt people this is just a false logical argument called argumentum ad populum. So when someone becomes an apposite it undermines their whole Islamic view point. Islam claims to be perfect, so one small insight that it is not and the nasty side is exposed
skouti comment is a great example of this and the falsehood of Islam.
yeah and that explains why the islam haters themsleves don't believe this fake blog eh mac , LOL
DeleteIt is because the islam haters know that their belief is weak and full of shite with no evidence or logic, right mac, hahahahaha :)
Yeah, a pedophile-rapist-murderer-liar is the Perfect Man and the sun sets in a muddy puddle. I see the logic.
DeleteQuestion: can the Muslim inner struggle to reduce one's own intelligence to a subhuman level be called jihad?
You would know fuckio, hehehehe :)
Deletegiven yer number to the fake one yet julio ?
you know you want to
stay classy as a HATER
More Islamic projection. To call us who critise Islam Haters is so Hypocritical. from skouti who can't disguise his hatred and lothing in the comment secection.
DeleteGuess ol mac won't be getting a call from the fake blogger, lol
DeleteIf I were a faithful Muslim who believed Allah was as all-powerful and vengeful as Islam says he is, then I'd be quite content to utterly ignore anyone leaving the faith. Allah will deal with them soon enough, right?
DeleteGuess Noddy won't be getting a call from the fake blogger, lol
DeleteHoly shit, edl clowns actually have a FAGGOT division, LOL
ReplyDeletereally ??? Seriously ???
EDL have no problem murdering gays
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-2rOv3aIzg
I believe you, and that there is an enormous problem with the religion of submission of all others. The comments here by the naysayers is just living proof of what tyranny looks like- whether, marxist, nazi, or mohammedan. There is no need to prove yourself. Human beings have to 'prove' themselves daily, and commentators have to 'prove' themselves, and correct themselves with their comments all the time. You are just a person, brave enough to have realized that there is a right and wrong and Islam is part of the now glorified but still very very wrong ideology touted as the 'best' religion by itself, which is fine. It's the part where it commands the submission and murder of those who don't allow it to rule that show that tyranny and homicide dressed up as a religion don't make a prophet ( he had no prophecy) nor anything resembling the live and let live attitudes of every other religion on earth. I Don't need her proof that she's 'real'. She's earned whatever respect others have the sense to give for living and understanding the tyranny she's forced to hide from while not threatening anyone else. That her words are solid, that she threatens no one, that she suffers slings and arrows, is evidence enough... along with the tyrannical naysayers who do their hyena bit in trying to erase her. They can't. She's way way too real to be gotten rid of that way.
ReplyDeleteLest the Islam hating Fools forget that this latest rant by spencer/sina is aimed squarely at you lot
ReplyDeleteAfter all spencer/sina don't care what muslims think about the fake blogger but they need their own supporters to email their phone numbers so you get a personal call from the dumb bitch, lol
So any takers yet? No :-)
Given your hatred I can almost believe you are a Supremacist Islamist Muslim yet given your language usage I believe that you are a fake Muslim just coming here to cause trouble (which on the other hand could make you a real Islamist too as that also fits the profile).
DeleteAccusations are easy, especially in the blogosphere.
IRONY ANYONE ???? sap of the dar al spastic ?
Deleteguess he won't be giving his number to the fake blogger either :)
Why should I? I agree with her and disagree with you. But you by your very nature are very disagreeable.
Deleteand by your very nature are a backward ass islam hating scumbag
DeleteBet you died horribly when Barack Obama was re-elected hey ??? yeah fcuked you right up to have a Mooooslim in the White House for another four years, LOL
There is nothing about Islam to like let alone love. It is a hateful, supremecist, mysogynistic intolerant, backward ideology followed by foul mouthed, unthinking, intolerant, blind haters like yourself who are far more backward in your thinking than any other hateful peoples who have ever existed.
DeleteWas Obama's re-election a dark event for all freedom loving, free speaking believers of equality and justice for all peoples? Absolutely! Nothing to LOL about.
oh man, sap of the dar al spastic really did DIE on election night.
Deletedid it hurt much FOOL ?
here let me ease your pain a little :)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLIJc7YE_jw
I'm a Canadian and thus did not vote in the US elections and had no say whatsover on its outcome. I merely state my dismay in the decision made by our neighbours to the south that they cannot see through the lies that hateful people like you spout daily or see through the foreign policy of their leader who clearly favours dangerous and intolerant people like you over his own people. He might as well be Muslim.
DeleteThat you favour the abolishmnet of freedom of expression, inequality between peoples of different beliefs, gender and thought and the conquest of the West by your hateful supremacist intolerant religion in your obvious gleeful celebration of Obama's return says much more about you than me.
OMG, a dumb ass Canadian......gawd what an embarrasement you must be eh. Mercifully you are in a minority and no one cares about you at all
DeleteDid you like the you tube clip ?
Thought it would cheer you up
Better than being whatever it is you are.
DeleteThis video is funnier:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDxOSjgl5Z4
Sab, thanks for your moral support, neighbor. But, 150% of the registered voters turned out in Ohio and Florida, so it seems that the whole country's turning into Chicago.
DeleteAd for skouti, 吃个黑虫子。
I believe shakila is real, and have believed it from the beginning. Why? Because her existence was testified to by Robert, and by Ali Sina. I have read Robert's blog for years, and have seen him value facts and honesty consistently. Similarly, Ali Sina stresses logic, facts, and honesty.
ReplyDeleteSo, both Robert and Ali Sina have stated that they have communicated by voice with shakila and she is real. That is good enough for me.
Then, the question becomes, is there anything in the blog that raises a red flag as to the reality of shakila? In other words, given the confidence I have in the integrity of Robert, is there anything which would make me doubt the reality of Shakila, and thus indirectly, the integrity of Robert.
I have occasionally disagreed with Robert's conclusions, but have never doubted his integrity in presenting the facts. Similarly, the question about Shakila is not whether all her actions indicated good judgement, but do any of her claims strain credibility?
As far as her use of American idiom, we should recall that in Pakistan, like India, the educated classes speak English. Someone with a background of familiarity with English and a skill with languages would easily pick up idiomatic English from the media. I myself have spoken extensively with people from Holland who had an absolutely flawless grasp of English. There was no way to tell from their sentence construction that English was not their native language.
skouti does not really present a logical argument, but instead confounds his emotional response with his reasoning, such as it is. Highly emotional, unsophisticated people are unable to separate their own emotional state from their reasoning, and so are confused when people do not take the intense emotional state of the skoutis as a legitimate argument.
Shakila is an attractive person, and I wish her the best. As far as actual knowledge about Islam, Robert is still the most productive source.
"What do I have to do now?"
ReplyDeleteNothing. You're trying to convince people (followers of your former religion) who are so blind a deaf that they will not change. Look at the lies they already fervently and violently believe in. The truth will not change their minds.
Unfortunately, even posting here may not change much. Only those who believe as you do in the utter wrongness of Islam and those completely taken in by its evil come here to read and comment and Islamists, as you have seen, are so ready to believe in conspiracies over truth. The latter must justify themselves and their wrong headed ways at any cost or their whole world collapses around them.
The only way to really spread truth is to come out into the full light of the public and openly declare yourself to the world. But as we know the Skoutis and the tarkgs of the world will now be gunning for you and attempting your murder as they always do. A great personal risk that few have the courage to do. I know that I wouldn't but I admire those that do.
"I believe shakila is real,"
ReplyDeleteand thus your membership of the Loooniverse is confirmed Ronald Mcdonald.......now go forth and convince the rest of your Islam hating freaks of the same.......good luck with that and lets us know how you get on old boy........might one suggest you implore them to email the fake blogger (see address provided in the latest bullshit yet comical post) in order to get a very personal assurance of the "realness" of the fake BITCH (hilarious!!!)
"As far as actual knowledge about Islam, Robert is still the most productive source."
All evidence to the contrary Ronald McDonald - unless of course you can prove spencer's scholarly credentials on Islam.
take your time, no pressure - this should be a blast!!!!
What makes you angrier and more hateful? The possibility that she may be fake? Or the possibility that she may be an apostate? Which makes your blood boil more, you myopic misogynist?
DeleteMemo to the Islam Hating Freaks - in particluar dar of the hab al spastic
ReplyDeletedo enjoy the comments on spencer's hate site - i found them most entertaining indeed - best of all
From her blog:
"...I will call everyone personally, whoever is brave enough to give their number. I will call each and everyone of you. What do to (sic) say to that, my fearful friends?"
_____________________________________
Firstly, accepting a call from an invisible female voice after having given a phone number that could be anyone's (one could simply provide a bogus #)accomplishes nothing. How would I know with complete certitude that I was speaking to Liberated on the other end of the line? perhaps more significantly, how would she know it was ME?
I've gone sour on this whole escapade and quite frankly, am even more convinced she's a phony, now."
HAPPY DAYS!!!!!
Better to hate Islam than you who hates everyone and everything NOT of Islam. You even proably hate things within Islam. Fellow Muslims in other sects who do not believe in exactly what you believe, Muslim women, and moderate Muslims who choose NOT to follow ALL the hateful and backward tenets that you clearly believe in.
DeleteYou cheer the death and suffering of anyone who doesn't believe as you do yet condemn us who "hate" a hateful ideology that is Islam which condones the murder and subjugation of non Muslims and the hate of everything non Muslim.
You are odious.
and you sap of the dar al spastic are just another backward ass CUNTry shit
Deletedo stay classy as a HATER :)
You are the epitomy of the "HATER" and there is nothing classy about you.
DeleteIRONY ANYONE ????
DeleteNone at all. I hate an idea, an ideology, a concept, a belief. YOU hate everyone who doesn't follow or agree with that ideology. Big difference.
Deletewell as a HATER of Islam you, like an alcoholic, would be the last to admit you are a HATER :)
DeleteYou HATE Islam so much you HATE the fact that Obama won because your HATRED of Islam you think he supports Islam
Touche'
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteFor the first part, I have already identified that which I "hate". That you feel you can reach into my mind and soul to say that I hate something else (that you never actually state what it is I am supposed to hate) is rather presumptuous on your part.
DeleteAs for the second part, I never said that Obama supports Islam but that his policies allow for the goals of Islamists to come to fruition. This can be concluded through a study of his policies, his speeches and the actions of his government NOT through viseral hatred. Whether he actively supports Islam or wishes to seem to support Islam in order to achieve foreign and domestic agendas with Muslims or whether he truly naively believes that Islam is really a benign force in the world is immaterial to my argument.
Man oh man, poor dude has tied himself in knots. One post he hates Islam and Obama and now he doesn't
DeleteMake up your mind and do let us know.
Simple question - do you hate islam/muslims ?
Yes or no will suffice
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteA yes or no will not suffice as you complicated the question.
DeleteYes, I hate Islam. I have been clear on that.
No, I do not hate Muslims. I never said that I did.
No, I do not hate Obama. Again I NEVER said I did but that I do not like his policies.
Your lying about what you claim I say does not make it true. This is a common ad hominem strategy from people like you. This is all part of the Big Lie as outlined by Hitler in Mein Kampf where a lie told often enough will seem like the truth and a bigger lie will be more likely to be believed than a smaller one. Islam IS an example of a Big Lie.
Question was too complicated was it eh. Well at least we established you are an Islam Hater
DeleteSo tell us why you hate Islam ? And tell us why this does not extend to hating muslims as they follow Islam , which you admit you hate
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI have repeatedly said why I hate Islam in the numerous statements above. Your question was not TOO complicated but not one that could be answered simplly yes or no as you included two incompatible concepts.
DeleteWhy, if I hate what you believe in, do I have to hate you too? There are many more factors here than your holding of an opinion. I do not like your opinion or your comunication of that opinion but I do not hate you. Just because I disagree with what you believe and your methods does not mean I have to hate you.
To say that I must hate ALL Muslims because I hate Islam is a faulty syllogism which would be.
I hate Islam
Muslims believe in Islam
Therefore I must hate all Muslims
There is a logical flaw in these statement. It rests the words "hate" and "believe". Hating a concept or belief is radically different that hating a living brething person. People vary dramatically from one another and everyone is different whereas the concept is one and remains the same. People's belief in that concept may vary that some may follow it in very different ways in accordance to their character. It must be based on the individual not as a mass, blanket statement.
I believe Islam to be a hateful, intolerant, misogynistic, and even evil ideology that calls for murder and domination over all others. I would question the character and morality of someone who would believe in and act upon these tenets but would have to meet the individual and hear their words and see their actions to make a judgement on how I feel about them whether it's genuine dislike of the individual or a dissapproval of their opinion and action. Being a Muslim and being an Supremecist Islamist are different as well. Being the former does not imply automatically that one is the latter.
It is possible that I could hate some Muslims as individuals who act abhorrently contrary to my concepts of human justice and correct social behaviour. I can't say that I wouldn't. But I would not say prior to knowing what they say, hearing of what they do or other evidence of their opinion and action that I hate them personally.
This is why the answer to your question requires much more than a simple yes or no.
making progress here so let us continue.....we have established that you HATE Islam and possibly HATE some muslims. It does appear that you do not have muslims as friends and have never interacted with them. Your HATRED of Islam is purely based on what you discovered on the internet which leads us to the next question......at what point did you start to HATE Islam ? Could be possible that you were born a HATER but more likely this HATRED manifested itself after some personal or general event. To give you an example, the likes of spencer et al, prior to 9/11 had no clue about Islam (nothing new there!!!). Prior to 9/11 spencer was far too busy bashing christianity and particular catholicism. after 9/11 and other personal events in his life (apparently he got his ass kicked out of Turkey and was jilted by a muslim girl etc) he became a HATER of Islam even though he claims does not hate muslims per se.
DeleteYou see the pattern, yes ?
Firstly, how do you know that I do not have Muslims as friends? I have plenty of Muslim friends. I lived in a Muslim country from 1992 to 2001 and interacted daily with them. I maintained friendships with many following my departure and made many new ones since my return. Typical of your ilk to imply otherwise with no evidence but since when have you needed evidence to believe anything?
DeleteSecondly, my dislike of Islam dates back to the 1970s long before the internet. I have read the Qur'an cover to cover three times and since the creation of the internet I have read a couple of the Haditha extensively as well as numerous pro-Islam and anti-Islam sources both in book form and web. I avidly watch world events particularly in the ME and have studied the history of the ME and the Islamic world. So don't atempt to insinuate that my misgivings and dislike of Islam is based on some visceral gut feeling or blind hatred. That's your department. My admission that there is a possibility that I could hate some Muslims if I believe that they were evil people by my standards is based on honesty. To say that I could never hate anyone would be a falsehood impossible to believe as I am human. I also can say that I could dislike, even hate, non Muslims who have done heinous things. Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Paul Bernardo, Stalin, Timothy McVeigh and so on. This does not make me a visceral people hater either.
My dislike of Islam then in based on over 30 years of study, observation and interaction with Muslims in their own land. Your ad hominem attack is invalid. What Spencer did or did not do is not applicable to me nor do I care. I am not here to defend or attack Spencer but to defend my own point of view which was developed long before I read anything of Spencer's.
" I have plenty of Muslim friends."
Deleteyeah i bet you do, LOL. the above is the standard response from Islam Haters - shock/horror despite their HATRED of Islam they always seem to have plenty of muslim friends.....snicker!!!!
Bet yer "muslim" friends wouldn't be your friends if they knew your internet history eh......yep they would see you for what you are - something which you readily admit to being - a Islam HATER.
"My dislike of Islam then in based on over 30 years of study, observation and interaction with Muslims in their own land."
Wow you are fully paid up member of the Islam HATING crowd aren't you ? After 30 years how did you get it so-ooooo WRONG ??? I mean it must be a real kick in the proverbials for you to know that after 30 years your views are not really accepted. did that add to your own sense of frustration/anger etc
Just to test this - out of a billion muslims how many, as a percentage, do you HATE.
give us a rough figure ?
So I got it "so-ooooo WRONG"??
DeletePlease explain to me how I have got it wrong. Be specific please.
OMG, gonna have to let this Loon down gently......so tell us how right you have been in your HATRED of Islam. After 30 years how much traction has your weird world view got ? how many other Loons like you are there out there ? more than 50 and I am being generous in that :)
DeleteLook at the Global Hate fest your fellow Loons tried to organise in Stockholm.......what a ClusterFcuk that was right......did you turn up, nope didn't think so. why would you waste your money
"Just to test this - out of a billion muslims how many, as a percentage, do you HATE."
DeleteNone. Hate requires a personal element that I do not have for any individual Muslim. My Muslims friends (with whom I have have numerous ideological and theological discussions on Islam and other topics) would be surprised to hear that they don't exist. I mentioned this to my friend rami originally from Palestine and he laughed at you.
Believing that Muslims are wrong does not automatically equate to hate. That is what you do. You have to know someone to hate them and as you pointed out all the Muslims I know are imaginary then how could I hate any of them?
I would like to see the men who shot Malala and Neda, for example, brought to justice but hate them? I don't know them.
Your question is merely there to bait me and amuse yourself. Your ad hominem attack your only source of argument. Answer my question above. Prove beyond doubt that Islam is everything I say it is not. That in the Qur'an, Sira, Haditha and in Sharia law, it does not preach supremacy, that it does not preach inequality, that it does not preach war against non believers, that it does not blaspheme against other religions, that it does not condone murder or assassination
"so tell us how right you have been in your HATRED of Islam"
DeleteNo, it's time for you to defend your beliefs and tell me why I'm wrong.
"none"
Deletehow terribly convenient for you......yup, these Islam Haters just love muslims don't they.......not called LOONs for no reason :)
If Islam is according to our resident HATER,so-oooooo bad then why are there over a billion muslims following Islam ?
Riddle me that :)
Rami help us out, LOL
and there are 2.1 billion Christians. Does that make them more right?
DeleteAnd the 1.1 billion secular believers?
Do 1.2 billion Chinese make them right in all their beliefs?
Numbers don't make any belief right.
Faulty argument.
well it would be from your perspective wouldn't it. over a billion muslims think they are right and then there is you - after 30 plus years of HATE and peddling your LIE about Islam being a lie, what have you got to show for yourself ?
Delete#EPIC FAIL for you
not as if your views have gained any traction at all. You must be doing something wrong. Perhaps you should start over ?
or are one of those "pseudo-experts" on Islam , LOL
anyway whilst you ponder that let us get back to the topic in hand - why do you think the fake blogger is continually having to justify herself to her own supporters ? Would be good to read the point of view from the HATERS. You must have read the vicious comments about the fake blogger from spencer;s hate site - not very nice the things that were written by spencer's supporters about his creation. if the fake blogger cannot convince her own base then thats another #EPICFAIL
your lot not doing very well at all in your fight against Islam
While I ponder what? You don't give much to ponder about. The "topic in hand" is whatever we choose to talk about but I will address your question.
DeleteThe blogger's need to "justify" herself only reinforces her authenticity to me. If Spencer was the blogger as you accuse I do not see him doing this. He is not a writer of fiction and tends to be very blunt edged in his approach to arguing his position. Whereas the accepted tactics for Muslim apologists and leftist "debabters" are personal ad hominem attack, deflection, dismissal, distortion and outright lie.
Take our "conversation" for example. Your argument has consisted of personal attack, insult, misdirection, deliberate misinterpretation and deflection. You present not one shred of fact or evidence to back your opinion which is barely stated at all. The only "fact" you presented is the tired old argument that "a billion Muslims can't be wrong". This is not true in any system requiring belief and not evidence. It is especially not true with Islam where the vast majority of believers have probably not read their scriptures or heard their scriptures read in their own language. At least in Christianity (I am not a Christian) a large percentage of the 2.1 billion believers have done some kind of bible study, read the bible and heard the bible read and criticially commented on in their own language and not some ancient language no longer in use and barely understandable even by scholars.
So I don't blame the blogger for wanting to defend herself against that kind of attack. MOst people will do that. Only the ATTACKERS and PERSISTANT LIARS like yourself don't understand why the speakers of truth would want to do this.
The blogger's need to "justify" herself only reinforces her authenticity to me."
DeleteYes these HATERS are certainly a paranoid and insecure bunch aren't they, The need to "justify" herself is truly hilarious when you realise that some of her own supporters did not believe her from the start. Talk about credibility problem eh. you know you are in trouble when you lose your own support base.
Riddle me that :)
"He is not a writer of fiction"
All evidence to the contrary but lets us examine this further shall we.
spencer claims to be an expert/scholar on Islam but has no formal qualifications on Islam to degree/master or phd level. he has a degree in religious studies and that is all. he has not published anything on Islam that has been peer reviewed or recognised by Islamic scholars. Googling spencer one discovers that he spent most of his life bashing catholicism then moved onto bashing Islam. There are two events in particular which led to spencer's animosity towards Islam - 1. he apparently got his ass kicked out of turkey and 2. a muslim girl spurned his advances
"It is especially not true with Islam where the vast majority of believers have probably not read their scriptures or heard their scriptures read in their own language."
and yet the Quran is widely translated. Riddle me that :)
"and yet the Quran is widely translated. Riddle me that :)"
DeleteAnd Muslims are told not to read them. That only Arabic (classical Arabic at that) is the authentic language of the Qur'an and that no other language is to be used. Qur'anic translations are used more by non-Muslims than Muslims.
"spencer claims to be an expert/scholar on Islam but has no formal qualifications on Islam to degree/master or phd level."
So what? Show me point by point how he is wrong if you claim to be a better scholar of Islam than he. If a piece of paper is the only thing you would accept as evidence for scholarship, there are countless dubious PhDs out there. Again, an ad hominem attack on Spencer (or anyone else) does nothing to prove what he is saying is incorrect.
"And Muslims are told not to read them."
DeleteAll of them ?
"So what?"
So on that basis you would you happy to let someone like spencer who has no qualifications in medicine and is the equivalent of a witch doctor, carry out surgery on you ? Nope didn't think so, yet you swallow the bullshit served up by spencer, without stopping to ask why
At least you agree that spencer is a LIAR when he claims to be a scholar of Islam
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DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"All of them ?"
DeleteIf they understand and believe in their religion. Yes.
"So on that basis you would you happy to let someone like spencer who has no qualifications in medicine and is the equivalent of a witch doctor, carry out surgery on you ?"
What a ludicrous comparison. Comparing the study of religion with the gaining of skills required for a surgeon is ridiculous. The study of religion requires knowledge, research, the ability to read. You do not need a PhD to achieve that. The vast majority of Saints and Scholars through the ages did not have a PhD in theology yet one would not accuse them of not knowing the religion. And besides Spencer is NOT a surgeon so why would he operate on me? I wouldn't even want a med student whose ink was still wet operate on me either. It's not the med school but the years as an intern that truly builds the skills. Someone could possibly have the same medical knowledge as that surgeon without ever having gone to med school.
"At least you agree that spencer is a LIAR when he claims to be a scholar of Islam"
What is a scholar? Various definitions for scholar include "A person who has done advanced study in a special field", "A learned person", "a learned or erudite person, especially one who has profound knowledge of a particular subject", "a specialist in a particular branch of study, especially the humanities"
For scholarly the words "erudite, knowledgeable, learned, lettered, literate, educated, well-read" are found.
No where does it define scholar as one who holds a PhD from a recognised modern university although scholars can and do come from these places.
Yet concerning Spencer's own claims on being a Scholar here are his own words on the subject "I have never described myself as a "Middle East expert" or an expert on anything." and "While working on my master's thesis, which dealt not with Islam but (in part) with some early Christian heretical groups, I began to study early Islamic history, since some of these groups ended up in Arabia and may have influenced Muhammad. In the intervening years I continued these studies of Islamic theology, history, and law out of personal interest" thus being up front and honest with his educational background. Where does Spencer refer to himself as a scholar? And even if he does there is no reason he couldn't possibly be one.
I guess these are your kind of scholars, eh?
Deletehttp://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/fifty-alleged-terrorists-from-islamic-school-in-nganjuk-detained/555943
Delete"What a ludicrous comparison. Comparing the study of religion with the gaining of skills required for a surgeon is ridiculous"
Well yes it would be to you oh ignorant one but the point which clearly flew past you at high speed is that to be considered an expert in any field requires the requisite amount of study and the gaining of qualifications, the publishing of thesis which is reviewed by ones peers etc
it is obvious that applying the accepted criteria, spencer is not an expert on Islam and not a scholar either
this would explain why his site, jihad watch is classed as a hate site and is banned by many organisations......care to comment ?
"I guess these are your kind of scholars, eh?"
never claimed they were
which is more than can be said for you vis a vis spencer unless of course you now agree that spencer is not a scholar or an expert on Islam - yes ?
What you are trying to do here is simple. By declaring Spencer not to be an expert or scholar through your narrow definition of one and have me agree with you, you are trying to invalidate not just one or two arguments Spencer has made but his entire body of work; everything he has ever said in his entire life on the topic of Islam.
DeleteI will not do that. While on an academic level I do not agree with everything Spencer has written about Islam, much of what he says rings true to me and concurs with my own understanding of the topics covered and my observations of the actions and statements of Muslim scholars and readings of the Islamic sources that I have done independantly of and previous to reading anything of Spencer's.
I believe Spencer to be quite knowledgable on the topic of Islam. Is he the font of all knoweldge on the topic? Of course not. Who is? But I think he is correct on many aspects of Islam and will not reject everything he has said on the basis of your criteria or your word.
One can be knowledgable on a topic, even be an expert, without having peer reveiwed papers and swing in academic circles nor does one have to be accepted and agreed with by every other expert in the field to be an expert oneself. That is the nature of academics; that disagreement is part of academia. And just because you, skouti, disagree with him does not presume that everything he has ever said in his entire adult life on the topic of Islam is incorrect.
Additionally on your narrow critieria for expert, one can be an expert tracker or hunter or game designer or car manufacturer without having stepped foot in a university or published a paper on your subject.
But back to Spencer's own claims. He himself does not claim to be an expert. Your hang up on the need to completely invalidate him for this is a bit silly. If YOU were to actually make a point that made sense for once, I could possibly agree with you that your point is correct and YOU are likely NOT an expert on Islam either by your own criteria. That is, if you were to actually make a specific point rather than continually attempt to discredit others through ad hominem attack rather than prove them wrong with an argument on the subject addressing specific points in their argument you disagree with.
So if, in your opinion, Spencer is NOT an expert then enlighten me on specific aruments on Islam where you believe Spencer is dead wrong. Enlighten me as why I should accept your attempt to invalidate eveything Spencer has ever said on the topic by pointing out the flaws in his entire body of work, everything he has ever said on the topic. This comprehensive deconstruction of his entire body of work and the presentation of your evidence to that fact is the only way I might agree with you that Spencer should be completely dismissed as a source of knowledge on Islam. Outside of that your mere statement that he is not an expert when you haven't proven that he isn't will not cut it.
"What you are trying to do here is simple. By declaring Spencer not to be an expert or scholar through your narrow definition of one and have me agree with you, you are trying to invalidate not just one or two arguments Spencer has made but his entire body of work; everything he has ever said in his entire life on the topic of Islam.
DeleteI will not do that."
Not a narrow definition at all......just an normal criteria by which everyone judges whether a person is an expert in any given field. that spencer fails this test says more about his credibility on the subject of Islam than anything else
the proper term to describe spencer is that he is a "pseudo expert" on Islam. He cobbles together stories he finds on the internet about Islam and then proceeds to cover them with his negative opinions on Islam and voila he claims this is what Islam represents
"I believe Spencer to be quite knowledgable on the topic of Islam"
again how widely is spencer' knowledge of Islam recognised by academia itself ? Any other scholars on Islam recognise spencer, any universities recognise spencer as knowledgeable on Islam ? Of course not. spencer is pretty much shunned as far as academia is concerned and why his general appeal is very narrow indeed. why is that ? If he was knowledgeable as you claim then I would expect him to be at the forefront of discussions on Islam. But in reality all he has is his site jihad watch which is classed as a HATE site
the next step is to establish why he HATES Islam at all ?
perhaps you can help us with this ?
"Of course not. spencer is pretty much shunned as far as academia is concerned and why his general appeal is very narrow indeed."
DeleteAcademia is the bastion of the liberal where liberal concepts reign supreme and conservatives are shunned generally. It wouldn't surpirise if this is one reason. But Spencer is not a professor at a university but a professional writer. This choice does not say that being one makes you correct in all that you say and incorrect being the other. Whatever title you give to Spencer does not make him wrong in everything he has ever said on Islam. You, skouti, still have yet to point out in what way he is wrong. Your statement that he is totally shunned in academic cirlces is also just a statement. You still haven't given me any evidence or reason to believe any statements you say.
"the next step is to establish why he HATES Islam at all ?
perhaps you can help us with this ?"
I don't know. Unlike you and other Islamic Apologists, I cannot look into a man's soul and determine all his motives and purposes.
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Delete"You, skouti, still have yet to point out in what way he is wrong."
DeleteHere, let's start with an easy one. One of Spencer's major accusations of Islam is that the Qur'an commands Muslims to wage war on the unbelievers until they are in a state of subjugation to the rule of Muslims and under Sharia Law and "all is for Allah". This is found predominently in sura 9 (the last word on this topic in the Qur'an) particularly verses 5 and 29 to 33, sura 98 verse 6 and elsewhere in the Qur'an. This concept in reinforced in the Haditha and modelled by the Muslim prophet in the Sira. It is confirmed by numerous ancient Muslim scholars (who even you would accept to be scholars) such as ibn Kathir as well as numerous modern day scholars such as Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi. This command is also echoed in the words and deeds of many Muslim leaders, teachers and organizations throughout the Muslim world. The evdience for this commandment is staggering.
Is Spencer wrong then about this? If so explain exactly how he is wrong.
A simple yes or no will not suffice.
"Whatever title you give to Spencer does not make him wrong in everything he has ever said on Islam"
DeleteLets test that statement by asking where has spencer been right in anything he has said about Islam and if spencer is correct in his view of Islam then why is his view not widely accepted ? could it be that spencer is considered a HATER of Islam because his site is classed as HATE site. In addition, spencer associates himself with groups such as the EDL who is a racist organisation, whose leader is currently in prison awaiting trial for offences committed (he is also a convicted felon).
And of course it would amiss of me not to mention Anders Behring Brievik.......when a Loon like Breivik follows spencer then enough said :)
"I cannot look into a man's soul and determine all his motives and purposes."
But you don't mind calling him a "expert" on Islam, LOL
"The evdience for this commandment is staggering.
Is Spencer wrong then about this? "
again is spencer right about this ? Look at the historical evidence and do let me know how many people were or have been subjugated by Islam ? Even historians do not buy into spencer's many LIES
The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross road” (Page 8):
“History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.” - Historian De Lacey O'Leary
The famous historian, Thomas Carlyle, in his book “Heroes and Hero worship”, refers to this misconception about the spread of Islam:
“The sword indeed, but where will you get your sword! Every new opinion, at its starting is, precisely in a minority of one. In one man’s head alone, there it dwells as yet. One man alone of the whole world believes it, there is one man against all men. That he takes a sword, and try to propagate with that, will do little for him. You must first get your sword! On the whole, a thing will propagate itself as it can.”
Did Islam spread throughout Indonesia at the point of a sword ? No muslim army entered Indonesia ?
compare the spread of Islam to how the crusaders behaved on their way to jurusalem - butchering jews long the way.
Riddle me that ? :)
This is a two part answer:
Delete"And of course it would amiss of me not to mention Anders Behring Brievik.......when a Loon like Breivik follows spencer then enough said :)"
And James Holmes associated himself with the Joker. Loons are loons. Brievik also quoted JFK, Jefferson, John Stuart Mill and George Orwell and praised al-Quaeda as the "most successful revolutionary force in the world" suggesting that their tactics should be adopted by conservative terrorists. He was a nutjob and not an associate of Robert Spencer.
"But you don't mind calling him a "expert" on Islam, LOL"
You're the one obsessing on the title "expert" using your own narrow definition. I said that I find him quite knowledegable which is one of the dictionary definitions for "expert" yet pointed out that Spencer himself does not refer to himself as an expert so I wonder about your obsession in taking away a title he does not claim.
"The best reply to the misconception that Islam was spread by the sword is given by the noted historian De Lacy O’Leary"
Firstly, thank you for finally presenting some kind of evidence foward for your point of view as opposed to mere ad hominem. It is quite refrshing. I have read excerpts of O'leary's before and seen this quotation many times. I am familiar with Carlyle but had not seen this quotation before and I thank you for it. You do know that Carlyle was a Satirist as well as a historian and essayist, eh?
But if this is the "best reply"...? A position that military conquest played no role in the spread of Islam goes against all the historic evidence to the contrary especially in the first century of Islamic expansion where they went from tribal groups in Arabia to an Imperialistic Expansionist Empire spanning from Persia to France. That could not be done through missionaries, persuasion and conversion alone. Such a position dismisses all the contemporary accounts of attacking Saracens and Hagarenes in the Christian cities of West Asia. It implies that such events such as the miliary conquest of Spain never happened. The battle of Tours a false story. The attacks on Rome in the eigth and ninth centuries merely myth. The eventual conquest and rape of Constaninople in 1453 a Jewish plot? The siege of Vienna in 1683..what..a Grimm fairy tale? That military conquest played absolutely no role in the expansion of the Islamic Empire and the bringing of non Muslim lands under Muslim domination and control? Very Hard to believe that peaceful preaching and conversion was the real means by which Islam gained supremacy in these lands.
Secondly, neither of these quotes address or dispel the fact that those Qur'anic passages exist and have been interpreted by Islamic Scholars through the ages to present time as exactly how I stated above. The life of the Muslim prophet in the Sira and the Muslim narrative of what he did and how violent jihad played a role in the expansion of Muslim power in his world are still accepted as truth by Muslims. These points remain unaddressed.
part 2
Delete"Did Islam spread throughout Indonesia at the point of a sword ? No muslim army entered Indonesia ?"
No you're absolutely right there. Islam was spread there through the conversion of rulers who saw the benefit of trading relations with Muslims (and of course genuine willingness to convert) who susequently commanded their subjects to convert as well. But certainly Indonesia today is becoming more and more intolerant of non Muslims in their midst and willing to exert violence to ensure domination.
"compare the spread of Islam to how the crusaders behaved on their way to jurusalem - butchering jews long the way."
Indeed, this happened. Christendom has apologised for this through the Pope and many protestant groups. Where is the similar apology from the Muslim world for the conquest of Christian Byzantine, Spain, North Africa, Eastern Europe and Persia?
"Riddle me that ? :)"
After talking about James Holmes above should I be concerned that you are using the buzz phrase of another Dark Knight cartoon villain? LOL
" Loons are loons"
DeleteWell you and spencer would know all about that :)
"He was a nutjob and not an associate of Robert Spencer."
The proper term you are looking for to describe Breivik is Islam HATER. Never mind the apology just read your lame excuses
Here this will cheer you up
Islamophobia, it turned out, was the problem. The news broke that the attacker was a blue-eyed Norwegian who not only was no jihadist, but was one of Geller’s ardent admirers. Suddenly, in Geller’s view, the suspect was now a lone wolf who represented nothing larger than himself.
(The New York Times counted 64 mentions of Spencer; Geller also disregarded Breivik’s “nomination” of Spencer for the Nobel Peace Prize.)"
Here is the KILLER PUNCH!!!!
"Contrary to Geller’s casual dismissal of Breivik’s references to Spencer, the accused mass murderer was a rapt follower of Spencer’s work. “About Islam I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer,” Breivik wrote in his manifesto. That should reignite a long-running debate about the accuracy of Spencer’s research; many critics accuse Spencer of focusing only on the Koran’s violent passages – which are common to many ancient texts, including the Bible – without accounting for its more-numerous passages of peace, justice and restraint, nor centuries of interpretive scholarship that place the violent passages in historical context."
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/07/26/american-anti-muslim-activists-throw-devoted-follower-breivik-under-bus/
RIDDLE ME THAT SUNSHINE!!!! ROFLMAO :)
" A position that military conquest played no role in the spread of Islam goes against all the historic evidence to the contrary especially in the first century of Islamic expansion where they went from tribal groups in Arabia to an Imperialistic Expansionist Empire spanning from Persia to France. "
And where does the subjugation fit in here ? How many people who were conquered by Islam forced into subjugation from Persia to France ? If you are correct then surely all these areas would be free of Islam by now as the people would have rejected the idea of forced conversion/subjugation and risen against Islam - just as was the case with communism and nations that rejected imperial rule by britain/france etc who colonised many countries. those colonised went on to become independent.
"Where is the similar apology from the Muslim world for the conquest of Christian Byzantine, Spain, North Africa, Eastern Europe and Persia?"
Is an apology due ? There appears to be no clamour for such an apology ? please explain why that is ? If as you claim that that Islam was spread by subjugation then the people would feel subjugated evebn now and demand an apology (as was the case with the crimes committed by christians). There does not appear to be any such cause for this or any popular movement calling for Islam to apologise for the above. Care to comment on this ?
"Riddle me that ? :)"
After talking about James Holmes above should I be concerned that you are using the buzz phrase of another Dark Knight cartoon villain? LOL"
did not come from the Riddler but another movie......can you guess what it is ?
"Well you and spencer would know all about that :)"
DeleteAhh, back to the ad hominem. A backward step but I guess you are accustomed to taking those.
"The proper term you are looking for to describe Breivik is Islam HATER."
So, if Spencer had written no books on the subject Breivik would be a well adjusted father of three with a good job and content to live the quiet life free of HATE?
"And where does the subjugation fit in here ?"
So from this I assume you accede to the fact that military conquest did play a role in the expansion of the Islamic world? What's the difference between "military conquest" and "spread by the sword" apart from the derogatory tone of the latter? If you accept conquest then you accept subjugation. Unless you are trying to sell me the notion that after the Muslim armies arrived that the locals were not SUBJECTED to Muslim rule and Muslim law? That they were permitted to have autonomous rule under their own laws and the jizya was optional? That high ranking non Muslims could actually rule over Muslims. That events such as happened at Cordova in 1066 were unusual and contrary to general practice in the Muslim world?
I would suggest to you that had Islam arose in Arabia and simply spread naturally through missionaries and conversion that Islam would not have been in control of the territory it aquired through conquest so quickly and would have meet more theological resistance in the process without the military power to back its spread.
"Is an apology due ?"
Yes.
"There does not appear to be any such cause for this or any popular movement calling for Islam to apologise for the above."
I can't say that there isn't but I'm sure right now non Muslim minorities in Muslim lands have a little more to worry about than apologies. As for the Christian apologies. These were given as forgiving and seeking forgiveness is a part of Christian belief and it absent in Muslim belief particularly asking forgiveness of non Muslims. After all in the scripture Muslims are the "best or peoples" and non Muslims are "the worst of creatures". Why apologise to animals, eh?
"did not come from the Riddler but another movie......can you guess what it is ?"
I know it was used in the Hangover but as a Muslim surely that would be Haram to watch? Other than that I can't think of any others outside the Batman genre.
"A backward step but I guess you are accustomed to taking those."
Deleteconsidering where you happen to find yourself in relation to Islam.........IRONY ANYONE ? :)
"So, if Spencer had written no books on the subject Breivik would be a well adjusted father of three with a good job and content to live the quiet life free of HATE?"
and 76 innocent children and adults in Norway would be alive today. Am sure that was just an oversight on your part. At least you accept that spencer played his part in creating Breivik
"If you accept conquest then you accept subjugation"
where is your evidence that subjugation occurred and if it did then where was the resistance to this subjugation ? if not immediately then the so called subjugated people and their heirs would surely have risen against Islam and eventually overthrown Islam as is the case in other scenarios throughout history e.g. communism.
"I would suggest to you that had Islam arose in Arabia and simply spread naturally through missionaries and conversion that Islam would not have been in control of the territory it aquired through conquest so quickly and would have meet more theological resistance in the process without the military power to back its spread"
An erroneous assumption on your part. Again I provided the example of Indonesia and Malaysia where there was no invasion by a muslim army and no subjugation took place and is proof that Islam was spread by peaceful means
""Is an apology due ?"
Yes."
Good luck with that.......let us know how you get on. you have tried unsuccessfully for 30 years.
" As for the Christian apologies. These were given as forgiving and seeking forgiveness is a part of Christian belief"
Well certainly christians do have quite a lot to apologise for compared to muslims. After all if you carry out a tally you will find that the christians win hands down in the slaughtering of others. history is littered with the bodies of innocents murdered by christians!!!
RIDDLE ME THAT :)
At least you got the movie right so there is hope for you yet my Islam Hating friend
"but as a Muslim surely that would be Haram to watch? "
Far be it for me to disagree with a non-muslim telling a muslim what is haram or not......after all you are the "expert" on Islam.....right ? :)
"considering where you happen to find yourself in relation to Islam"
DeleteA supremacist statement coming from a Muslim? How odd.
"and 76 innocent children and adults in Norway would be alive today."
A terrible and condemnable thing. But nowhere in Spencer's writing does he advocate that kind of act or incite people to do violent acts. I would like YOU to present me with any passage in his work where he tells people to murder children. This is the same argument Muslims are currently using to shut down free speech in the world. "Don't say anything negative about Islam or we will rise up and kill people and it will be your fault". Ludicrous argument.
"where is your evidence that subjugation occurred"
Read a dictionary definition for subjugation sometime. Conquered lands and the being being conquered are by definition subjugate to the rule and laws of the conquering peoples.
Under the Ottoman Empire non Muslims were never given full citizenship unless they converted. That's not subjugation? In 1066 in Cordova 4000 Jews were massacred because a Jewish Grand Visier was perceived to be exerting too much authority over non Muslims. That's not subjugation? Again in the Ottoman Empire the children of non Muslims were taken from their homes to serve as Janissaries and then used to control their own peoples. That's not subjugation? At many times in many places non Muslim minorities were not allowed to build places of worship or their places of worship were destroyed on the whim of the Muslim rulers? This is what sparked the first Crusade and yet this is not subjugation? At different times and places non Muslims were forced to wear certain clothes to set them apart from the Muslim. In the 1840s when Egypt temporarily occupied Palestine, every non Muslim was forced to wear a yellow badge on their clothing and cut their hair in a certain way to set them apart from Muslims (sound familiar?). But that is not subjugation? There are many such examples.
"if not immediately then the so called subjugated people and their heirs would surely have risen against Islam and eventually overthrown Islam"
Uprisings did occur which were brutally supressed. The Greek revolts of the 18th century as the Ottoman Empire weakened come to mind immediately. The Sikh rebellion of the 18th century another. There were numerous uprisings on the Iberian Peninsula that were supressed by the Moors. In 840 the Muslim ruler Mu'tasim ended a 34 year rebellion against Muslim rule in Persia. They did happen with most if not all were brutally supressed.
"Good luck with that.......let us know how you get on."
Hey, you asked me if an apology is owed. I said yes. I realise that given the Muslims absolute distain for non Muslims that one is never going to come so I don't bother campaigning for one.
"history is littered with the bodies of innocents murdered by christians!!!"
Absolutely!! In fact I say that given the two religions Christians are more accountable for their actions as they don't have the violent passages in their scriptures to justify the killing and war against non believrs that the Muslims have in their scriptures.
"Far be it for me to disagree with a non-muslim telling a muslim what is haram or not"
Hey! Someone has to it seems..
"after all you are the "expert" on Islam.....right ?"
Hardly. Like Spencer I have never claimed to be. That why I ask you for legitimate argument against what I say so that I may learn more and hear counter to my argument as food for thought. I'm starving in this conversation so far.
"At least you got the movie right so there is hope for you yet my Islam Hating friend"
DeleteYay!!
"I would like YOU to present me with any passage in his work where he tells people to murder children."
Delete‘This is an unconventional war. We are in a war, we are in a clash of civilisations. The thing I want to leave with you in closing is that we are the soldiers. The soldiers are not in uniform. There are no armies on the field. The armies on the field are there, they’re doing noble work but that’s only one small part. The main struggle is right here. And we are it. This is a battle for the soul of Australia, for the soul of Europe, for the soul of America, for the soul of the west. And its outcome is not at all decided, as dire as it may look, because we have not yet begun to fight. It is up to us.’
The passage might have come, word-for-word, from Breivik’s testimony. But it didn’t.
It’s part of a recent speech by Robert Spencer, a luminary of the Islamophobic Right. "
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/24/dealing-with-the-real-anders-breivik/
Finally, to what extent can Islamophobes like Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer be held responsible for Breivik's act? As someone who has some personal experience with "guilt by association," I do think we should be careful about assessing blame. None of these hawkish pundits openly advocated violence, and all have (for the most part) distanced themselves from Breivik's act. But it is also clear that their writings consistently portrayed Islam in a crude and monolithic way and tended to depict all Muslims as part of some looming threat to core Western values. And it seems clear from Breivik's manifesto that these writers did have a considerable impact on his worldview, even if they did not advocate the horrific response that he chose.
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/07/29/breiviks_warped_world_view
"Conquered lands and the being being conquered are by definition subjugate to the rule and laws of the conquering peoples."
DeleteTo the Victor goes the spoils :) even so, life for non-muslims living under muslim rule was much better when compared to christian rule. for example when the jews were expelled from spain in 1492, the muslims welcomed them. there were no forced conversions for those living under muslim rule
"Christians are more accountable for their actions as they don't have the violent passages in their scriptures to justify the killing and war against non believrs"
DeleteI could quite easily list the violent passages in the bible and then use these to condemn Christianity as a whole but then i would be no better than spencer and his ilk
"I'm starving in this conversation so far."
when you have been fed on the nonsense provided by spencer et al anything else is an absolute feast, LOL
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Delete"The passage might have come, word-for-word, from Breivik’s testimony. But it didn’t"
DeleteUsing a martial metaphor is not the same as inciting people to take up arms and kill Muslims. Unless I missed the part where he mentioned killing children.
The second citation specifically said that Spencer and Geller do not call for violence. So this is suggesting that Spencer and geller must curb their legal free speech that does not call for violence on the off chance someone may read it and chose to commit violence on his own accord? Are you really saying that? You could also say that the Dark Knight Rises movie should not have been made on the off chance someone will associate themselves with the Joker and attack a movie theatre. In that world no one could say or do anything on the off chance someone may use your ideas for ill purpose. In this world the qur'an would be banned in the off chance someone may interpret its content to fly airplanes into buildings or blow themselves up in a bus full of people.
"there were no forced conversions for those living under muslim rule"
Not true. There were instances of forced conversions in the historic record but I will give you that the recorded instances we know of were few and not in the mass numbers to account for the growth of Islam. I tend to consider the theory that conversions arose due to the lack of rights given to non Muslims encuraged people to convert in order to become full citizens in their own country free of the discrimination inherent in Muslim law under Muslim rule. Didn't really help the women accept a Muslim woman has marginally more rights and protections than a non Mulsim woman. However, true freedom of religion does not exist under Muslim rule. While Muslim countries suffered non Muslim religions to exist they never given the full rights as Islam and a) could not be discussed and practiced openly and b) could not build and maintain places of worship. Also, Muslims have no right to leave the faith and join another.
"I could quite easily list the violent passages in the bible and then use these to condemn Christianity as a whole but then i would be no better than spencer and his ilk"
I agree that tu quoque arguments are inherently dishonest as they are intended to distract and deflect. Yet I have yet to encounter a reference to Christian directly using these passages to justify a specific violent act (if you know any I would be gald to hear it). Yet there are countless examples of Muslims using Qur'anic passages to justify their violent acts.
To quote a friend of mine "Riddle me that?!"
"when you have been fed on the nonsense provided by spencer et al anything else is an absolute feast, LOL"
I did LOL at this one. Thanks!
An after-thought on my last post.
DeleteOn Spencer and incitment to violence:
Spencer started writing books after 2001. I would say that from that time to the present far more people have used the Qur'an to justify violent acts than Spencer's collected works.
"Using a martial metaphor is not the same as inciting people to take up arms and kill Muslims. Unless I missed the part where he mentioned killing children"
DeleteI believe the point that was being made in the links I provided was that spencer & co cannot shy away from their role in Breivik's act of mass murder. When news broke of Breivik's massacre, Geller & Spencer were all too quick to pin the blame on muslims but when they found out it was one of their own, a Loon who frequented spencer's hate site and posted on it, quoted spencer in glowing terms, they quite literally threw Breivik under the bus.
why didn't spencer and co just concede that Breivik was one of their Loons who ran amok. It is stretching credibility to suggest that Breivik was part of Al-Qaeda :)
"Although no one is charging that Geller had any specific knowledge of Breivik's horrendous plans, a few years earlier, in 2007, she did publish a long rant from a Norwegian (using a pseudonym) -- filled with incendiary language, visions of an Islamic Armagedon, dark threats of impending violence--that one would swear must have come from the deranged mind of Anders Breivik. Geller says no.
Many of her readers at the time, however, gave a rabid thumbs up to the anonymous writer, encouraging his apocalyptic views.
As one of her fans -Turn--wrote on Geller's blog:
"There's an Old Testament blood-bath comin'.
"Question remains: Are there enough Norsemen that will hear the Wyking song pulse in their veins?
"Season after season Norway (and Sweden) are conceding whole neighborhoods populated by 'immigrants' as no-go zones. Police and EMS won't respond there. It's the friggin' death-cry of civilization when the barbarians can intimidate in this manner.
"So...yes. A very nice letter to you, Pam, from a Norwegian Atlasite (Atlasonian?). Unfortunately, he or she could be prosecuted under hate-speech laws for writing or posting in Norway what you have passed on to us.
"To which Geller replied:
"yes turn, which is why I ran it anonymously"
Again, Geller is adamant that that the Norwegian correspondent was not Breivik. Interestingly however, she later attempted to wash her hands of the whole affair by excising a couple of sentences from the Norwegian's violent diatribe:
"We are stockpiling and caching weapons, ammunition and equipment. This is going to happen fast."
In fact, so many Internet sites now speak of Islam as a deadly menace, so many of them issue a call to arms before it's too late, is it any wonder that a few deranged individuals take that threat seriously, decide to give their lives, as valiant champions if you will, of "our Christian way of life".
Bottom line: Either there is a mortal threat to our civilization, or there isn't. If there is, then how can you possibly condemn a heroic young fellow like Andres Breivik who decided to heed a clarion call to selfless action?"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-lando/anders-breivik_b_1431679.html
"Yet I have yet to encounter a reference to Christian directly using these passages to justify a specific violent act (if you know any I would be gald to hear it). "
How about the WestBoro Baptist Church - they seem to believe that under the bible "God Hates Fags" and provide plenty of verses from the Bible to back up their claim. Also there are christians who believe bombing abortion clinics and mudering doctors who carry out abortions is justified under the bible.
"To quote a friend of mine "Riddle me that?!""
Touche' - very good :)
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DeleteThe first three quarters of your post it is unclear where you end and HuffPo starts and I'd rather address you than HuffPo so it it difficult how to answer. Firstly, the article speaks of Geller and not Spencer. I do not know Geller's work as well and consider her to be a bit of a hothead so I cannot defend her work as I would Spencer. But I acknowledge this is something you can jump all over me with as I do realise that Spencer and Geller do support each others positions very closely. Guilt by association although I have not read in what Geller has written that I have read where she calls for the murder of adults let alone children. Yet being more familiar with Spencer's monographs, I do not see anywhere in there where he calls for violence against Muslims or violence against anyone. If he did I would be the first to condemn him. But once again you are saying here that Spencer and others who share his opinion should somehow be silenced on the grounds that someone somewhere may interpret their work the in a violent way even though they do not call for violence (all your articles disclaim that). You still haven't answered me as to why this approach shouldn't be undertaken with the Qur'an as well for the same reasons.
Delete"How about the WestBoro Baptist Church - they seem to believe that under the bible "God Hates Fags" and provide plenty of verses from the Bible to back up their claim."
Yes, like the Qur'an the bible condemns homosexuality. The Old Testament even has the punishment of death stated. And you're right that The Westboro Baptist Church Pastor has come out in support of this biblical punishment but to my knowledge no one in that church has actually killed anyone in the GLBT community yet while chanting that verse. Pastor Phelps himself felt that the government should enforce such things thus "rendering unto Caesar" the right to make that call or not. There is no talk on their part as far as I've read of taking the law into their own hands.
"Also there are christians who believe bombing abortion clinics and mudering doctors who carry out abortions is justified under the bible."
True. I wonder how Christian are they though? What biblical verses do they use to murder abortionists: "thou shalt not kill?" Seems that they are pretty confused whereas "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah" and "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" are pretty clear and unambiguous.
"I do realise that Spencer and Geller do support each others positions very closely"
DeleteThey are Islamaphobic bedfellows to say the least. each posts their hate on each other's sites and appear together in public and on tv/radio shows. Geller is by far the looniest of the two and she does make spencer look mildly intelligent at times which does beg the question, why is spencer allowing himself to be associated with Geller. He might actually be taken seriously is Islamic matters if he actually removed himself from the HATERS
" I do not see anywhere in there where he calls for violence against Muslims or violence against anyone"
For your benefit I will re-post these remarks by spencer:
‘This is an unconventional war. We are in a war, we are in a clash of civilisations. The thing I want to leave with you in closing is that we are the soldiers. The soldiers are not in uniform. There are no armies on the field. The armies on the field are there, they’re doing noble work but that’s only one small part. The main struggle is right here. And we are it. This is a battle for the soul of Australia, for the soul of Europe, for the soul of America, for the soul of the west. And its outcome is not at all decided, as dire as it may look, because we have not yet begun to fight. It is up to us.’
The passage might have come, word-for-word, from Breivik’s testimony. But it didn’t.
It’s part of a recent speech by Robert Spencer, a luminary of the Islamophobic Right. "
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/24/dealing-with-the-real-anders-breivik/
I suppose this is as close as one could get spencer for inciting loons like Breivik to act out their madness but the fact remains that Breivik is a product of the Islamaphobic industry. Evidence is pretty damning in that regard.
"But once again you are saying here that Spencer and others who share his opinion should somehow be silenced on the grounds that someone somewhere may interpret their work the in a violent way even though they do not call for violence "
When you peddle HATE as spencer does then do not be too surprised when it comes back to bite you in the case of Breivik
""thou shalt not kill?" Seems that they are pretty confused whereas "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah" and "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" are pretty clear and unambiguous."
and how many muslims, out of the plus billion or so today would you say actively carry out the above. Give us a rough percentage and I hope for consistency you will provide other quotations from the Quran which show Islam to be peaceful because we would hate to think that you deliberately ignore these. We could both indulge in selectively pointing out texts from the Bible and the Quran which shows each religion in a bad light but it hardly advances the discussion.
"He might actually be taken seriously is Islamic matters if he actually removed himself from the HATERS"
DeleteIt might surpirse you to hear that I agree with you on this.
"For your benefit I will re-post these remarks by spencer"
Firstly, thank you for looking after my benefit.
Secondly, I will repeat for your benefit and return the favour that this quotation is a metaphor using martial language. This is clear to anyone with an understanding of English metaphors. When one talks about a "battle for the soul" of anything one is clearly talking about an intellectual or spiritual struggle. Much like the 19th century hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers" is NOT talking about Christians waging war on non-believers but a spiritual struggle against the forces of evil.
"When you peddle HATE as spencer does then do not be too surprised when it comes back to bite you in the case of Breivik"
Have you ever read a Spencer monograph? He tends to spend most the time quoting Muslims, Muslim sources and Muslim scholars. Their own words of HATE.
"and how many muslims, out of the plus billion or so today would you say actively carry out the above"
In theory 100% of them should. These passages are no less the direct word of Allah as the peaceful ones (see further explanation below). As I said before I do not have the ability to see into the hearts and minds of Muslims to know exactly what they are thinking or believing but one thing I would say from the observation of what is being done and said today by Muslims and their leaders, that the number of Muslims who believe in and act on these passages in the Qur'an is astronomical to the number of Christians who believe in and act on the violent passages of the Old Testament.
"I hope for consistency you will provide other quotations from the Quran which show Islam to be peaceful because we would hate to think that you deliberately ignore these"
No, not at all. A believer, no matter what the faith, cannot cherry pick the scripture they choose to believe in. That's why I do not call myself a Christian, not being able to buy into the whole shibang. Yet likewise, you cannot ignore the violent passages in the Qur'an, even if you don't believe in the law of abrogation (that a great majority of Muslim scholars advocate) that states that the violent passages of the so called Medinan Period supercede the more peaceful passages of the so called Meccan period. So the passages I quoted from sura 2 and sura 9 are both from Medina with sura 9 being one of the very last thus the last word on the subject.
"We could both indulge in selectively pointing out texts from the Bible and the Quran which shows each religion in a bad light but it hardly advances the discussion"
We sure could. But as I said above in Islam the violent passages of Medina tend to abrogate the peaceful passages of Mecca. Likewise, according to prevailing Christian thought, the peaceful passages of the New Testament tend to supercede the violent passages of the Old Testament given the supposed sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
"But the balance of power will change, and this is what is told in the Hadith of Ibn-Omar and the Hadith of Abu-Hurairah: "You shall continue to fight the Jews and they will fight you, until the Muslims will kill them. And the Jew will hide behind the stone and the tree, and the stone and the tree will say: ‘Oh servant of Allah, Oh Muslim, this is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him!' The resurrection will not come before this happens." This is a text from the good omens in which we believe"
DeleteI suppose this is as close [well one can get closer actually] as one could get Allah for inciting loons like Shiekh Yusuf al-Qaradawi to act out their madness but the fact remains that Qaradawi is a product of the Islamist industry. Evidence is pretty damning in that regard.
Yet Muslim scholars and leaders are not supposed to advocate killing based on the peaceful passages of the Qur'an? I am confused now... (sarcasm intended)
"This is clear to anyone with an understanding of English metaphors. When one talks about a "battle for the soul" of anything one is clearly talking about an intellectual or spiritual struggle. Much like the 19th century hymn "Onward Christian Soldiers" is NOT talking about Christians waging war on non-believers but a spiritual struggle against the forces of evil."
DeleteWhich was obviously lost on spencer's favourite son, Brevik who took spencer's message of HATE to its next step and murdered 76 innocent norwegians
"Have you ever read a Spencer monograph?"
Only for the comedy value :)
"He tends to spend most the time quoting Muslims, Muslim sources and Muslim scholars. Their own words of HATE."
Nice try but not quite. Spencer trolls the internet for stories on Islam and then selectively quotes the Quran to justify his hatred. Hence the reason he cannot claim to be anything other and a pseudo expert on Islam and not to mention the fact that none of his so called works would stand up to the scrutiny of a review by Islamic Scholars (unless of course you can prove otherwise)
here is a link which again takes spencer apart when it comes to his so called knowledge on Islam
http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/01/more-proof-why-you-really-shouldnt-trust-robert-spencers-scholarship/
"In theory 100% of them should.......that the number of Muslims who believe in and act on these passages in the Qur'an is astronomical to the number of Christians who believe in and act on the violent passages of the Old Testament."
Well in the theory as believed by spencer and the Islam hating crowd 100% of them should but in reality that is not the case. I am confused (Mega Saracasm intended together with, yes you know it......RIDDLE ME THAT!!!!)
Yet I have repeatedly asked for a figure/precentage from you on how many muslims you believe carry out the passages of the quran you quote and the best you can come up with is "astronomical"?!?!?!?! oh dear :) guess it must be difficult when you use your hatred of Islam to justify how muslims should be behaving.
"I suppose this is as close [well one can get closer actually] as one could get Allah for inciting loons like Shiekh Yusuf al-Qaradawi to act out their madness but the fact remains that Qaradawi is a product of the Islamist industry. Evidence is pretty damning in that regard."
By using the same logic you would agree that spencer was instrumental in Brevik's moment of glory. Evidence is pretty daminig in that regard too
Another two parter: part 1
Delete"Which was obviously lost on spencer's favourite son, Brevik"
Well...yes...that's what I've been saying for several posts. By the way I have only read excerpts from Brevik's manifesto. Do you know a site where it has been posted in full that I may read it myself and see how he referecnes Spencer and others? Thanks
"Only for the comedy value :)"
LOL. Which one(s) have you read?
"Hence the reason he cannot claim to be anything other and a pseudo expert on Islam and not to mention the fact that none of his so called works would stand up to the scrutiny of a review by Islamic Scholars"
Spencer's collected works are in the public forum. You use the the word "would" as if a comprehensive review hasn't been done yet. Has a notable Islamic Scholar dissected Spencer's works point by point rather than dismiss it with general condemnation? This is an honest question as I would very much like to read that dissection as counter-point. Any monograph or scholatic article (outside of loonwatch especially)you can point me to would be appreciated. I have seen Spencer debate Islamic Scholars and so far none of them have countered his points. Like you they avoid answering his questions and tend to the ad hominem and the throwing around of HATE and ISLAMOPHOBE intending to put their opponent on the defensive. Few of them address his points and none effectively. Many more Islamic scholars dismiss him outright and refuse to debate him or even address him or his points other than using generalise condemnation, again much as you have here. So why should I buy into what you are saying unless you talk about specific points or arguments of Spencer's and refute them rather than simply calling him a "loon" and a "HATER"?
"Yet I have repeatedly asked for a figure/precentage from you on how many muslims you believe carry out the passages of the quran you quote and the best you can come up with is "astronomical"?!?!?!?! oh dear :)"
Yet how can I come up with any figure that would be statistically accurate? As I have repeatedly said I cannot reach into the hearts and minds of a billion plus Muslims to know what they know or believe OR even discern how much they understand about their own religion.
Part 2:
Delete"Well in the theory as believed by spencer and the Islam hating crowd 100% of them should but in reality that is not the case"
Well yes. People not acting on these passages do not make the passages not exist. they exist. They are, in the Muslim world view the divine word of Allah. So why would they not act on them? The answer is multifold. Many may not know their own scripture as they do not read Arabic and are told only what their Imam tells them (although it is interesting how many Muslim attacks on non Muslims occur on Fridays after a Mosgue sermon). Many may be inherently peaceful people who chose to cherry pick with verse they want to follow and which ones they want to disregard. Many may understand the scripture fully and support it but chose not to carry it out as physical action due to whatever reason. There could be many reasons people do not act out these scripture passages including the possibility (which I do not personally believe) that these passages do not mean what they literally are saying.
Yet this still brings us to the question you have been ducking these past few posts. According to your thesis, Robert Spencer's works should be banned and horrible punitive things done to Spencer himself as someone somewhere may interpret his works in a violent way and act out on them. Why can't the same thinking be used for the Qur'an whose clearly violent passages have been used by many to carry out their own violent acts. Even you to argue that they have misinterpreted these passages as I claim has been done with Spencer's, people still clearly have used this book to justify violence therefore shouldn't it too be banned as you would like to see Spencer banned even though he has not preached violence?
"By using the same logic you would agree that spencer was instrumental in Brevik's moment of glory."
I don't believe so but I would like to read Brevik's manifesto nonetheless. Qaradawi was directly quoting the Qur'an and Haditha sources that call for the killing of Jews at the End of Days. He has also spoken about the conquest of the world as per Qur'anic commandment. I personally have read almost all of Spencer's monographs and he has never said that the world should be conquered in the name of Christianity OR that anyone should be killed at any time. The worst he has said about taken action against Muslims is that Western countries should reassess immigration from Muslim countries to ensure that Muslims agree that they are entering a pluralistic, democratic country with civil law as the law of the land. That's the most extreme I have seen him get in his monographs.
"http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/01/more-proof-why-you-really-shouldnt-trust-robert-spencers-scholarship/"
DeleteThis was amusing. Thanks!
Your scholar here accuses Spencer of lying about whether Muhammad participated in earlier wars thus having experience in military conflict. Then after Spencer replies he goes after Spencer's translation of whether Muhammad regretted participating or not dropping his initial argument whether or not Muhammad actually participated in the wars at all, taking the stance that he did but regretted it. If you march off to war launch a few arrows and gather more off the battlefield how is that not participating in the war, regret or no regret?
"Hence the reason he cannot claim to be anything other and a pseudo expert on Islam"
DeleteYou claim that Spencer himslef claims the title of "expert" and "scholar" and YOUR scholar at loonwatch claims the same. Yet nowhere does Spencer claim this himself. What you and YOUR scholar are referring to is the section of Jihad Watch entitled "What they're saying about Robert Spencer". Not his own words. Did you even notice that he has the following quotes there as well?:
"“A hero of the American right.”
— Karen Armstrong
"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
— Salon Magazine
“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
— Stephen Suleyman Schwartz
“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
— Hamas-linked CAIR
“Satanic ignoramus.”
— Khaleel Mohammed
“The Likud anti-Christ.”
— Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)
“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
— Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”"
So by your reasoning and the reasoning of YOUR scholar does Spencer consider himself to be all these things as well? They are after in the same place as the quotes calling him a "scholar" and an "expert".
While his own words on the site are "I have never described myself as a "Middle East expert" or an expert on anything."
RMT??!!
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Delete"you quote and the best you can come up with is "astronomical"?!?!?!?! oh dear"
DeleteIn the past 12 to 15 years, how many Christians have cited passages in the bible to justify attacks on non Christians? None. How many Muslim attacks on non Muslims in that same period justified using the Qur'an? Hundreds if not thousands. So yes, astronomical. Not to mention the attacks made on other Muslims over differences in belief.
" This is an honest question as I would very much like to read that dissection as counter-point. Any monograph or scholatic article (outside of loonwatch especially)you can point me to would be appreciated.!"
DeleteWhats wrong with Loon Watch ? They are brilliant in taking spencer and his ilk apart. Probably explains why spencer runs away from debating Loon Watch. He would get slaughtered :)
"Yet how can I come up with any figure that would be statistically accurate? As I have repeatedly said I cannot reach into the hearts and minds of a billion plus Muslims to know what they know or believe OR even discern how much they understand about their own religion."
uh-huh, after +30 years of hating Islam that is the best you can come up with ??? But hold on that doesn't quite halt you in your tracks as you go on to state:
"The answer is multifold. Many may not know their own scripture as they do not read Arabic and are told only what their Imam tells them (although it is interesting how many Muslim attacks on non Muslims occur on Fridays after a Mosgue sermon). "
Man oh Man, those muslims are sure lucky to have you on hand to tell them how they should be practising their religion eh Lest not forget you do have muslim's best interests at heart. Some of your own gems testify to this:
"Muslims are perpetrating the Biggest Lie the world has ever seen. It's called Islam"
"here is nothing about Islam to like let alone love. It is a hateful, supremecist, mysogynistic intolerant, backward ideology"
The Ultimate - RIDDLE ME THAT!!! LOL
"According to your thesis, Robert Spencer's works should be banned and horrible punitive things done to Spencer himself "
did I say that ? Just pointed out that once spencer found out that it was one of his own followers who slaughtered 76 innocent norwegians, the hapless spencer ran for cover but not before throwing poor Breivik under the bus (wow, with friends like spencer who needs enemies!!!!)
Please see more info below on spencer and his links with racist/neo-nazi organisations:
"Furthermore, Spencer was one of the most heavily cited sources of “information” on Islam in the mass-murdering terrorist Anders Breivik’s manifesto; in fact, Breivik explicitly stated “About Islam, I recommend essentially everything written by Robert Spencer”"
" Robert Spencer is also now formally allied with the English Defence League/British Freedom Party, who are themselves now allied with the aforementioned European neo-Nazis.
—– The EDL have been forcefully condemned by a very long list of British Sikh temples & organisations
"EDL leader/BFP deputy leader Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (aka “Tommy Robinson”) has repeatedly promoted neo-Nazi material, including European neo-Nazi groups along with Hitler-supporting, anti-Semitic, white supremacist neo-Nazi websites; full details of the most recent incident available here.
—– As a result of an interview he gave to the Norwegian media, in April 2012, Yaxley-Lennon is on record as publicly praising Anders Breivik, promoting Breivik’s manifesto, and claiming that Breivik’s mass-murdering terrorist attack would have been “easier to justify” if the people killed had been Muslims. Full details here and here.
—– After the recent verdict in Anders Breivik’s trial, Yaxley-Lennon has continued to publicly endorse Breivik’s propaganda."
http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/10/sioasionafdi-jihadwatchs-robert-spencer-exposed-the-facts/
" Hundreds if not thousands. So yes, astronomical."
and as a percentage how many would that be to justify it being "astronomical ? out of a billion plus muslims, how many is that ? take your time, no pressure :)
I read and reread your last post several times. There's nothing new there and less to respond to. Just rehash, more misdirection and obfuscation. Not one of my own questions of you addressed. I guess I once again put too much hope in finding a Islamist Apologist capable of reasoned discussion.
DeleteToo bad.
oh dear......being confronted with your own words demonstrating your hatred towards Islam and the fact that spencer is allied with known racists/neo-nazis proved too much for you.
DeleteGuess we will just have to wait for next installment of nonsense from the fake blogger who is yet again strangely quiet - spencer/sina obviously working furiously to come up with something to salvage from this miserable blog. after all even their own supporters don't believe the fake blogger
RIDDLE ME THAT!!!!
"oh dear......being confronted with your own words demonstrating your hatred towards Islam"
DeleteI figured you'd respond thus. I have not denied these or my dislike and disapproval of Islam. This is an old story you are simply rehashing as you lack anything else to say. I thought that this was covered thoroughly already and saw little need to revisit it and spin more wheels over it.
"spencer is allied with known racists/neo-nazis proved too much for you"
That you can only get Spencer for who he hangs around with and not what he actually writes is telling. If guilt by assocoiation is all you got on him? We spend more time on this YOUR OBSESSION of HATING Spencer than disputing what he actually says about Islam. It's rather pathetic actually.
I was going to respond to this anyway:
"out of a billion plus muslims, how many is that ? take your time, no pressure :)"
by asking you what is YOUR number for this? How many of the billion plus Muslims in the world believe the Qur'an when it says that Muslims are superior to non Muslims, that Muslims by their superiority should thus rule over non Muslims, that Islam should dominate the world and that non Muslims lands should come into Muslim control and rule? After you've given me the number for this give me a number of Muslims who agree with the Qur'anic and Haditha sources that agressive Jihad is a valid way to accomplish the last point?
If your number is zero for this then explain to me why a billion plus Muslims don't even follow their own faith? If your number is larger explain to me why they do.
RMT??!!
"That you can only get Spencer for who he hangs around with and not what he actually writes is telling. If guilt by assocoiation is all you got on him?"
Delete" It's rather pathetic actually."
Yes it would be if spencer was only palling around with the boy scouts......mind you that would be creepy in itself given the catholic church's tastes for lil boys, LOL
But if you deem the fact of spencer's alliance with neo-nazis and exteme right wing groups to be ok, well that says a lot more about you and pretty much confirms your comfort in HATING Islam. Alos spencer calls his neo-nazi chums "freedom fighters" - oh the IRONY and well worth a RIDDLE ME THAT ???
Feel free to refute any of the facts about spencer as presented by Loon Watch
http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/10/sioasionafdi-jihadwatchs-robert-spencer-exposed-the-facts/
""out of a billion plus muslims, how many is that ? take your time, no pressure :)"
by asking you what is YOUR number for this?"
Struggling are we with answering a simple question? Yup certainly appears so lest you forget it was YOU who said the number was "astronomical". So time for YOU to put up or SHUT UP :)
Ho hum, nailing these islam HATERS is way too easy.....where is the challenge/fun in that :)
"But if you deem the fact of spencer's alliance with neo-nazis and exteme right wing groups to be ok"
DeleteNo but you've gone from trying to discredit what he has said about Islam by denying him from being an "expert" to this guilt by association while all the while NOT trying to discredit what he actually says by refuting it with whatever it is you think to be the "truth".
"Feel free to refute any of the facts about spencer as presented by Loon Watch"
Are you just a puppet of Loon watch? How about expressing your own understanding of Islam to counter what you have called my HATE of Islam. How about answering some of my substantive questions above? Pick one any one.
"Struggling are we with answering a simple question? Yup certainly appears so lest you forget it was YOU who said the number was "astronomical"
Ho hum, nailing these islam HATERS is way too easy.....where is the challenge/fun in that :)"
It would be easy as you don't understand what is being said to you. I said that IN COMPARISON to the number of Christians believing in acting on the violent passages in the bible the number of Muslims believing n and acting on the violent passages in the Qur'an is astronomical.
As for percentage here's a repeat of my question above for you to address:
How many of the billion plus Muslims in the world believe the Qur'an when it says that Muslims are superior to non Muslims, that Muslims by their superiority should thus rule over non Muslims, that Islam should dominate the world and that non Muslims lands should come into Muslim control and rule? Please endeavour to answer this?
I would say that the number for this goes into the 100s of millions. Anybody who truly believes in and understands what the Qur'an commands.
"Ho hum, nailing these islam HATERS is way too easy.....where is the challenge/fun in that :)"
Round and round there it goes, where it stops nobody knows!!!
Were you a carnival barker in this or a previous life??
"No but you've gone from trying to discredit what he has said about Islam by denying him from being an "expert" to this guilt by association while all the while NOT trying to discredit what he actually says by refuting it with whatever it is you think to be the "truth""
DeleteI see you are struggling to justify spencer's unholy alliance with neo-nazis. who needs to discredit him at all. He does that brilliantly on his own, LOL
"Are you just a puppet of Loon watch? How about expressing your own understanding of Islam to counter what you have called my HATE of Islam."
Steady there......you getting all a bit hot under the collar. No need to stress yourself unnecessarily. I guess being presented with FACTs does have that effect on some
"I said that IN COMPARISON to the number of Christians believing in acting on the violent passages in the bible the number of Muslims believing n and acting on the violent passages in the Qur'an is astronomical."
"I would say that the number for this goes into the 100s of millions"
Wow, at last we are making some progress. Gawd you Islam HATERS are hard work but through perseverance we will try to get you out of yout life of HATE and into the light side.
So from astronomical we have 100s of millions.
Now your next task is to provide some statistical evidence to back up your claim
"ow many of the billion plus Muslims in the world believe the Qur'an when it says that Muslims are superior to non Muslims, that Muslims by their superiority should thus rule over non Muslims, that Islam should dominate the world and that non Muslims lands should come into Muslim control and rule? "
see now we are getting an insight into the world of the Islam HATERS.....the above is just a snippet so it probably does get a lot worse from here on in :(
"Steady there......you getting all a bit hot under the collar. No need to stress yourself unnecessarily. I guess being presented with FACTs does have that effect on some"
DeleteLOL. I'm sorry what "facts" are these?
"So from astronomical we have 100s of millions"
Compared to zero, 100s of millions is astronomical.
"Now your next task is to provide some statistical evidence to back up your claim"
You asked for a number. I have told you repeatedly that any number I gave would be statistically inaccurate yet you are now asking for statistics which is why I refused to give you an answer with a number attached. Yet if 1 billion plus Muslims are supposed to be following Islam and Islam clearly talks about the superiority of Muslims (3:110, 98:6), that Muslims should rule over non Muslims (in the Sharia) (4:59, 3:28, 4:123), that Islam should rule over all people in the world (8:39, Sahih Bukhari 53:392) and that aggressive Jihad (8:39, 9:5, 9:28-33, Sahih Muslim 19:4294)can be used to achieve this that 100s of millions DON'T believe this? Then clearly what I have said that Muslims do not read their own scripture or fully understand their own laws and religion is valid.
"see now we are getting an insight into the world of the Islam HATERS.....the above is just a snippet so it probably does get a lot worse from here on in :("
So rather than the ad hominem attack as your sole strategy, refute this using your own scripture and law. Tell me your understanding of Islam. You have yet to reveal what you understand or believe is the TRUE teachings of Islam. Rather than name calling, correct my ignorance?
"The foremost duty of Islam in this world is to depose Jahiliyyah (unbelievers) from the leadership of man, and to take the leadership into its own hands and enforce the particular way of life which is its permanent feature" Islamic Scholar Sayyid Qutb
"...the Islamic Ummah [nation]... can regain its power, be liberated and assume its rightful position which was intended by Allah, as the most exalted nation among men, as the teachers of humanity..."
DeleteMuslim Brotherhood
"we will not stop at this point [i.e., “freeing Egypt from secularism and modernity”], but will pursue this evil force to its own lands, invade its Western heartland, and struggle to overcome it until all the world shouts by the name of the Prophet and the teachings of Islam spread throughout the world. Only then will Muslims achieve their fundamental goal… and all religion will be exclusively for Allah."
DeleteHassan al-Banna
"LOL. I'm sorry what "facts" are these?"
DeleteAgain for your benefit, feel free to refute any of the facts about spencer as presented by Loon Watch
http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/10/sioasionafdi-jihadwatchs-robert-spencer-exposed-the-facts/
"Compared to zero, 100s of millions is astronomical."
And yet if we suspend reality for a moment and enter the bizarre world of these Islam hating LOONs and lets accept the above as being true.......then please explain why the above is not at all news worthy ???
100s of millions of people doing something or another would be quite an event would it not and would surely be reported
RIDDLE ME THAT SUNSHINE!!! :)
"You asked for a number. I have told you repeatedly that any number I gave would be statistically inaccurate yet you are now asking for statistics which is why I refused to give you an answer with a number attached. Yet if 1 billion plus Muslims are supposed to be following Islam and Islam clearly talks about the superiority of Muslims (3:110, 98:6), that Muslims should rule over non Muslims (in the Sharia) (4:59, 3:28, 4:123), that Islam should rule over all people in the world (8:39, Sahih Bukhari 53:392) and that aggressive Jihad (8:39, 9:5, 9:28-33, Sahih Muslim 19:4294)can be used to achieve this that 100s of millions DON'T believe this? Then clearly what I have said that Muslims do not read their own scripture or fully understand their own laws and religion is valid."
Docha just luv the way these LOONs cherry parts of Islam to make their case.......tooo funny.
So let us re-cap your position:
1. You claim Islam is evil but provide no evidence of this, statistical or otherwise. the best you can come up with "100s of millions"
2. You pick out a few quotes from the Quran etc to show Islam is violent etc and then here is the hilarious part......you claim that muslims who don't follow these, don't really know their own religon at all. As I stated before, the mulsims are very luck to have you on hand to set them straight on that :)
That has really got to be a major disappoint for you i.e. here you are after +30 years of studying Islam and believing it to be an evil/violent ideology, yet it is not a view widely shared in the real world.
Honestly, how do you explain that ??? where do you think you have gone wrong in your assessment of Islam ?
"100s of millions of people doing something or another would be quite an event would it not and would surely be reported"
DeleteAre you diliberately misunderstanding my statement OR are you really that stupid? I will restate my statement on this below. The magical number you ask me to come up with refers to Muslims who: "believe the Qur'an when it says that Muslims are superior to non Muslims, that Muslims by their superiority should thus rule over non Muslims, that Islam should dominate the world and that non Muslims lands should come into Muslim control and rule". Fairly easy read, really.
"Docha just luv the way these LOONs cherry parts of Islam to make their case.......tooo funny"
DeleteYes it is considering that Muslims have been doing the same thing for centuries but when a non Muslim does it suddenly you shouldn't do it. Funny indeed.
"Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said as he was returning from jihad,
"We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad."
The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as:
(1) "Fighting is prescribed for you" (Koran 2:216);
(2) "Slay them wherever you find them" (Koran 4:89);
(3) "Fight the idolators utterly" (Koran 9:36);
and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
"I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah";
and the hadith reported by Muslim,
"To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it." (o9.0)
From an English translation of the Shafi'i book of Sharia Law "Reliance of the Traveler.
"Scholars agree that all polytheists should be fought. This is founded on [Qur'an,] 8:39: "Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely."
Ibn Rushd (Averroes) 1126-1198
"That then is the jihad against the unbelievers (kuffar), the enemies of God and His Messenger. For whoever has heard the summons of the Messenger of God, Peace be upon him, and has not responded to it, must be fought, "until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely" ([Qur'an] 2:193, 8:39)."
Taymiyya (Hanbali Jurist) 1263-1328
"In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united (in Islam), so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them (religion and politics) at the same time.
The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense...
...All of them are unbelief. This is clearly stated in the noble Qur'an. (To) discuss or argue those things with them is not up to us. It is (for them to choose between) conversion to Islam, payment of the poll tax, or death"
Ibn Khaldun (Islamic Scholar and historian) 1332-1406
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [poll tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur'an 9:29
So tell me why these well respected Islamic Scholars got it wrong too and also explain why the Qur'anic passages I "cherry picked" do not mean what I have said they mean? The Qur'an is supposed to be universal (for all places and all times) and quite literal and easy to read and understand. Why then do these passages mean not what they say?
"The magical number you ask me to come up with refers to Muslims who: "believe the Qur'an when it says that Muslims are superior to non Muslims,"
DeleteCertainly is MAGICAL coming from you :)
But we knew that didn't we, LOL
"Yes it is considering that Muslims have been doing the same thing for centuries but when a non Muslim does it suddenly you shouldn't do it. Funny indeed."
Not at all, please do carry on cherry picking the parts of the Quran just to reinforce your own HATRED of Islam. You seem particular vexed by jihad to the point that it must be killing you inside to know that your view of jihad is not widely held
Not as if you and the rest of your LOON brethren are managing to convince the wider public.
How is that working out for y'all. Your hapless leaders cannot even put together a believable blog of an ex-muslim , ROFLMAO
RIDDLE ME THAT!!!!!
"But we knew that didn't we, LOL"
DeleteLOL. You are becomng more amusing as time goes by. That's meant as a compliment. A veritable Prince of Deception like the other one in your "literature". Taqiyya at its best. LIES to the KUFFAR, eh? You have yet to address a single question I put to you and the more you twist and avoid the more telling is your position.
"You seem particular vexed by jihad to the point that it must be killing you inside to know that your view of jihad is not widely held"
Those are quotes from your own Scholars. But I guess they're not Scholars unless they agree with you?
Some more?
"There is a Hadith related by a group of people which states that the Prophet [peace be upon him] said after the battle of Tabuk: 'We have returned from Jihad Asghar [lesser jihad] to Jihad Akbar [greater jihad].' This hadith has no source, nobody whomsoever in the field of Islamic Knowledge has narrated it. Jihad against the disbelievers is the most noble of actions, and moreover it is the most important action for the sake of mankind"
Abu Fadl, "Greater and Lesser Jihad," trans. Khalid Saifullah, Nida’ul Islam [The Call of Islam], no. 26, April-May 1999
"A man asked [the Prophet]: "...and what is Jihad?" He [peace be upon him] replied: "You fight against the disbelievers when you meet them (on the battlefield)." He asked again: "What kind of Jihad is the highest?" He [peace be upon him] replied: "The person who is killed whilst spilling the last of his blood.""
Sahih Muslim 1:149
"Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
Sahih Bukhari, 1:2:24
"Jihad is a precept of divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis... maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), short of which war will be declared against them. The jizya can only be accepted from them if they occupy a territory where our laws can be enforced. If they are out of our reach, the jizya cannot be accepted from them unless they come within our territory. Otherwise we will make war against them"
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani
"please do carry on cherry picking the parts of the Quran"
Alright.
"And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do."
Qur'an 8:39
"You are becomng more amusing as time goes by"
DeletePale in comparison to your comical efforts :)
"A veritable Prince of Deception like the other one in your "literature"."
IRONY ANYONE ??? especially so when one looks at your own hapless leader. spencer, hehehehehe
again you can tell how much it KILLs sab of the dar al Haarb to know that Islam is not viewed in the same light as his HATRED of it is........Hurt Much ?
"Some more?"
Ariston and on, and on, and on LOL
Welcome to the bizarre world of sab of the dar al Haarb :)
Settle in everyone as it is going to be a long haul with this particular LOON!!!
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Delete"Settle in everyone as it is going to be a long haul with this particular LOON!!!"
DeleteMaybe. You actually have to say something to which I can respond. LOL
You entered into stage three of LIES to KUFFAR where you only refer to your opponent in the third person. Typical Muslim supremacist strategy... LOL Very Funny!!
Islamic Scholar Abu’l Ala Maududi said that he rejects
Delete"the stand of those modern Muslim apologists who have tried to explain the jihad of the early (Muslim) Community in purely defensive terms."
"In ordering jihad Allah has said: "Fight them until there is no persecution and religion becomes Allah's" [2:189]....
Allah has, in fact, repeated this obligation [to fight] and has glorified jihad in most of the Medina suras: he has stigmatized those who neglected to do so, and treated them as hypocrites and cowards....
It is impossible to count the number of times when jihad and its virtues are extolled in the Book and the Sunna.Jihad is the best form of voluntary service that man consecrates to Allah....
Therefore, since jihad is divinely instituted, and its goal is that religion reverts in its entirety to Allah and to make Allah's word triumph, whoever opposes the realization of this goal will be fought, according to the unanimous opinion of Muslims.
Jews and Christians, as well as Zoroastrians (Magians), must be fought until they embrace Islam or pay the jizya without recriminations. Jurisconsults do not agree on the question of knowing if the jizya should be imposed on other categories of infidels; on the other hand, all consider that it should not be required of Arabs [hence they should convert to Islam or be killed or expelled]"
Islamic Scholar Ibn Taymiyya (1263-1328) Hanbali Jurist
"You entered into stage three of LIES to KUFFAR where you only refer to your opponent in the third person"
DeleteStage three!!!! HOLY MOLY folks we are in deep trouble, ROFLMAO :)
our resident LOON is on the Islam HATING Playbook - goin strictly by the numbers, haahahaha
Do remind us of Stages 1 & 2 - should be blast!!!!
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Delete"Do remind us of Stages 1 & 2 - should be blast!!!!"
DeleteLOL
Stage 1: the ad hominem attack
Stage 2: a semblance of reasoned discussion mixed with ad hominem while really not saying anything at all.
Hence now stage 3: The ad hominem third person as if you're trying to convince some imaginary friend of your misdirections.
Quite classic actually...LOL.
"please do carry on cherry picking the parts of the Quran"
Delete"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
Qur'an 2:191-193
"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Qur'an 2:216
"Stage 1: the ad hominem attack
DeleteStage 2: a semblance of reasoned discussion mixed with ad hominem while really not saying anything at all.
Hence now stage 3: The ad hominem third person as if you're trying to convince some imaginary friend of your misdirections.
Quite classic actually...LOL."
Fake blogger please take note as you, as a fully paid up member of the Islam HATING LOON squad, will need to remember these 3 stages..........otherwise folks here won't believe that you real........Oooops they already don't believe you......ROFLMAO :)
RIDDLE ME THAT!!!!
But you haven't even heard about stages 4 and 5 yet...
Delete"please do carry on cherry picking the parts of the Quran"
Delete"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Qur'an 8:12
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"
Qur'an 48:29
"The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." "
Sahih Bukhari 52:256
"But you haven't even heard about stages 4 and 5 yet..."
DeleteSure I am going to regret asking but what the hell.....bring it on :)
Fake blogger.....pay attention now, this is all for you, LOL
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Delete"Sure I am going to regret asking but what the hell.....bring it on :)"
DeleteROFL!!
stage 4 is usually characterized by frustrated anger but in your case, sanctimonious saracasm? LOL
Stage 5: Is usually inevitable. Such discussions often end in threats directed at the Kuffar. Not always death threats but those could be involved.
"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled or incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. . . . But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. . . . Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur'anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."
Ayatollah Khomeini
"When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."
Sahih Muslim 19:4294
"stage 4 is usually characterized by frustrated anger but in your case, sanctimonious saracasm? LOL"
DeleteVery good!!!! :)
"Stage 5: Is usually inevitable. Such discussions often end in threats directed at the Kuffar. Not always death threats but those could be involved."
Or the reverse in this case as I am sure feeling threatened from all the weirdness being posted by the fake blogger et al......this blog is like the Twilight Zone for sure :)
Any more Stages ???
"Any more Stages ???"
DeleteI don't think so. I'll let you know if I come up with any more. LOL
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ReplyDeleteI have not read all of skouti's posts, nor do I want to. I can see from all of the foul language he is using, that evil has taken over his heart. If he cannot be civilized, I suggest you ban him, he is very offensive.
ReplyDeleteNo. Do not ban him. His words prove our case better than we ever could with ours.
DeleteROFLMAO!!!! :)
DeleteOh man you clowns are tooooo funny
Please carry on as i am enjoying this immensely
Well can't have that, can we?
DeleteWill be a shame when spencer/sina will have to close this fake blog down........you can see how they are struggling to convince their own base.
DeleteHey, anyone got a call from fake shakila yet ?
If you were a fiction, you would be an interesting, entirely plausible and well written fiction. Moreover a fiction which would be and excellent match for the facts which we hear from apostates that have gone public.
ReplyDeleteSo basically I don't care.
But rest assured that I am perfectly comfortable with the notion that you are really there. Comfortable, that is, that it's true. It is a source of some distress to imagine what you have lived through.
Hang in there and be of good cheer. Many, myself included, wish you well.
"So basically I don't care."
DeleteIn other words . . . even if this really did turn out to be untrue. You don't care!
My only problem with believing the ex-Muslim is that she seems to want support and sympathy, but she really isn't as threatened as people are led to believe. How is that possible? When people try to convince her that she really is in serious danger, she doesn't seem to agree because she knows she isn't. That is a contradiction.
ReplyDeleteRegarding her fluency in English, some people are gifted in languages. Joseph Conrad, for example, is regarded as one of the great novelists in English, though he did not speak the language fluently until he was in his twenties (and always with a marked Polish accent). see wiki. Ayn Rand is another writer whose original language was Russian and did not come to the US until she was in her twenties. Clearly the ex-Muslim also is very gifted in languages, and she doesn't need to apologize for that.
I would be hesitant about calling people if I did not want anyone to know what country I was living in. Couldn't this be traced?
best regards, stay safe.
"My only problem with believing the ex-Muslim is that she seems to want support and sympathy, but she really isn't as threatened as people are led to believe. How is that possible? When people try to convince her that she really is in serious danger, she doesn't seem to agree because she knows she isn't. That is a contradiction."
DeleteThat unremarkably obvious contradiction which you have detected (but which so many seem incapable of seeing) can be resolved most likely in only one of two ways:
1) she is some kind of elaborate deception
2) she is suffering from that strange -- but alas all too common among islamochristians, Muslim "reformers", and some Muslim apostates -- form of Stockholm Syndrome Denial that resembles schizoaffective disorder, which occludes her ability to see clearly the evil danger which her Muslim family support, as part of the normative mainstream sickness of Muslim psychology and society in general.
I think it's the latter, since to posit the former would be to impugn Spencer and Ali Sina as either colossally stupid, or deceivers themselves (neither of which I think is reasonable to assume).
Until LO weighs in with a substantive response in this regard, however, I can't be absolutely sure.
"Regarding her fluency in English"
DeleteFluency in English is one thing . . . cultural influence is something else.
For example - there are many Chinese and Indian English speakers that are perfectly "fluent" in English - as it is a global lingo. But their culture is not Western. And this comes through. In this case - only Americanisms come through . . . and that is the really suspicious thing.
- - -
@ hesperado
Delete"I think it's the latter, since to posit the former would be to impugn Spencer and Ali Sina as either colossally stupid, or deceivers themselves (neither of which I think is reasonable to assume)."
read this person's alleged email to Sina. Whose style of writing is completely different.
- - -
Also Sina IS a deceiver.
My best friend lives in Tehran. Like you, he grew up watching American TV. In 2000, he came to the US illegally. He got saved, Jesus even appeared to him. He applied for asylum in the US but his case was denied because his English was too good! The judge did not believe he had applied for asylum within a year of arriving in the US
ReplyDeleteThis is my friend: http://www.humanevents.com/2004/05/25/feds-cant-decide-about-iranian/
So don't feel bad. The Bible twice says not to worry because of evil people - Psalms 37:1 and Proverbs 24:19. The best thing for you to do now is to read your Bible a lot, so you can see how God is working in the world.
Knowing Islam as you do, as you learn more about what God has told us in the Bible, you will begin to see how God is using Islam. We won't stop Islam, but Jesus will, when He comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
What the Lord wants us to do now is to share the truth boldly with all lost people, including Muslims. You've already started doing that, praise God!
Paul
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ReplyDeleteTo Liberated One-
ReplyDeleteMany have shown skepticism about whether you are real or not. Having read your blog, I know that you ARE for real. I am South Asian and I have read things that a South Asian is much more likely to write than others. I have also noticed that you present some things in a way that is unique to upper-middle-class North Indians and Pakistanis. Therefore I know that you can't be a creation of Robert Spencer; you are indeed Pakistani. On top of that you have written things in your blog that can only come from someone who has truly apostatized. And all of this makes it clear to me that your story is true.
But may I ask why is it so important to you that people must believe you? You seem to be some kind of attention seeker who goes nuts if people don't believe her.
You have revealed more information about yourself than you should have. You told your parents and your sisters-in-law (which means that your brothers know about it by now too) about your apostasy. Didn't enough people advise you that you should leave the Islamic country that you are in, even if it is as liberal as Dubai!! Do you really believe that you know more than people who have been actively observing Muslims (and how their mind works) for years?
Are you sure that your brothers do not take Islam seriously? Let me guarantee you that your sisters-in-law will NOT keep this fact to themselves. Soon lots of people will know about your apostasy.
Maybe YOU like to play with fire, but you have no right to put John's life in danger! And YES, his life IS in danger even if you told everyone that you lost your deen before you met John! Therefore, it is less important whether people believe you or not, and a lot more important that you get the hell OUT of UAE. Or else YOU will be responsible for anything bad that happens to John and yourself!!
" I am South Asian and I have read things that a South Asian is much more likely to write than others. I have also noticed that you present some things in a way that is unique to upper-middle-class North Indians and Pakistanis."
DeleteWhich ones - why don't you point them out.
In fact why DIDNT you point these out . . . ?
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"On top of that you have written things in your blog that can only come from someone who has truly apostatized."
Such as? This is a clearly well controlled story - and as the author admits - a protected one. Suddenly this mysterious "Bob" appears to get out of why the IP is not Arabian.
- - -
"You seem to be some kind of attention seeker who goes nuts if people don't believe her."
ReplyDeleteYup that is spencer all over.......he is like a lil child needing constant attention :)
" you get the hell OUT of UAE"
Whoa......steady dude. lets suspend reality for a moment and assume the fake blogger is actually a real person.
Does anyone honestly think someone in their right mind would give up a tax free job in the middle east to come to the west which is knee deep in the worst recession known to mankind ??? How easy would it be for the fake MURTARD to get a job and then have to pay shit load of taxes eh.......use yer BRAINS!!!! LOL :)
Nearly everyone overlooks the true value of this site, which is skouti. His irrational, vitriolic ramblings, steeped in foul language and overly-reactive anger to whom he labels all Islam citics as being haters, demonstates more aptly the mindset of Islam than this site's author could ever relay.
ReplyDeleteSkouti does far more damage to the facade of peaceful Muslims and the mythical peaceful Islam than any commenter could possibly achieve.
To that I say, well done.
And yet the fake blogger is more preoccupied than ever about convincing her own supporters she is real
ReplyDeleteRiddle me that Fool :)
Take heart awake, you can still email your phone number to spencer and he will hook you up with the fake one
Am enjoying the damage control the Islam Haters are having to undertake. Do carry on, LOL
Blogger, You've got nothing to prove to the mockers. If they genuinely believe that a young woman could not possibly leave Islam, then it shows they can only project their own blind obedience to Islam, onto you. They deserve our pity.
ReplyDeleteIf they do not really believe that, then their motive is clear: mock, ridicule, slander. Then, repeat. No matter what evidence you present. (As far as I can tell, Muslims must reject the validity of personal testimony anyway, in order to reject the very witness of the disciples, no less.)
What do you have to prove to these? What could you? They can't possibly be interested in truth, as they clearly refuse to accept your personal decision. Since proof is impossible in any case - and that is what they're deliberately exploiting - it's simply not worth your while trying to convince them. Keep being yourself. Your witness is enough.
"They deserve our pity"
ReplyDeleteYes they do bobby boy but hang on a sec who is "they" exactly ???
They are your very own kind bobby......yaas sir......the folks who do not believe the fake blogger are the some of the Islam HATERS themselves......shock/horror!!!
if you want evidence then just look at this blog from the start and visit spencer's hate site for some of the hilarious comments posted there about the so called liberated one, LOL
Oh boy, the hate preacher skouti has gone wackier than when he first came around. He probably has a great big ugly boil in the middle of his forehead like most of his 'truly' Islamic brotherens. How often do you bang your forehead on a hard-rock skouti, five times each day? Doesn't that make you sick to figure a never existed paedophile and a rapists got a clown like you banging head on a hard rock 1400 years after his virtual existence came to an expected end (he was proven a con artist) when his wife poisoned him. The so called God sent individual had a wrong all the time, married one of the women who was going to kill him - LOL. Alla didn't give him an ounce of sense or warning that she is going to kill him - LOL. He couldn't figure she will kill him - LOL. Keep on banging your head on that rock son till you are completely brain dead. You have not too long to go, lets say six months may be nine months..after that it won't hurt at all and you could practically have a rock embedded into your head. It will save you worrying about finding a hard place in the desert when you need one. It is not surprising there are clowns like you exist in millions. The stupidity has no limits. The Muslims have verified it over and over for thousands of years - ROFLMAO..ha ha ha ..
ReplyDeleteIf you think Islam is such a piece of shining turd, why don't you tell us what part of Islam we have been missing so far?
ReplyDeleteshakila, I think a bunch of your interjection are not easy to rationalize. On the one hand you appear to hate Islam and Muslim men and on the other hand you love them when it suit you - I have come across some 'westernize' Muslim gals - I also dated two in the past - their biggest enemy was their close relatives (father/Brothers/mother). I find you not so easy to believe you think your relatives will leave you alone or they will come around to accept you for leaving Islam. It is not up to them to decide. It is Allah who decides does he not? You know Allah had no mercy no matter what they say.
ReplyDeleteDon't take it a wrong way - I think you are either not real about Islam or you are really ... what can I say. I don't need an email assurances, thanks. I like to read facts.
OMG, DAR SHIT is back with a vengence folks and you know he ain't a happy bunny, cuz he has thrown the fake blogger under the bus ROFLMAO!!!!
ReplyDeleteGuess he is not gonna be emailing spencer/sina with his phone number either.
I think we should take a poll on the number of Islam HATERS who have abandoned poor "shakila"
Brilliant :)
Stay classy as a HATER, hehehehehe
Dar-schan = DAR SHIT? Hmmm.. even scumbags have their uses.
ReplyDeleteHey richie bwoy, thats not a very nice thing to say about Dar SHIT, ROFLMAO:)
ReplyDeleteIts you that called him DAR SHIT, I just called you the scumbag that you are. But then you are a product of the indoctrination of your foul religion. It teaches you to treat non-Muslims and women as less than human. Thats why you abuse Liberated and call her a bitch and abuse everyone else. You dont know any better. And you dont have the intelligence to see through the transparent and childish lies of your religion.
Deleterichie, richie, richie......is you still upset ???
DeleteDid Jimmy Saville not FIX U RIGHT....bwahahahahaha :)
Oh dear KILLED richie bwoy with that one!!!!
MEMO to sab of the dar al Haarb:
looks like we got another Anders Behring Breivik in richie bwoy :)
skouti - your resorting to name calling is going to boomrang onto you quicker than you can shout out loud Oh-Bummer. You have no credibility on this site. You are a laughing stock for me. Your postings and replies all end up in the jerk-mode.
ReplyDeleteSimply put - either contribute something constructive or find a new blog where they don't know you. Robert and Sina are highly commanding individuals. You could never match their power of intellect in your entire lifetime. Liberated is a different person which you can't figure due to your demented head-banging sore forehead.
skouti = SHIT-OUTI
ReplyDeleteEveryone with an ounce of common sense and passion for humanity should be out there in force telling their Governments that we don't want Islam because it is more evil than NAZI-party's agenda. I am not Islamophobic, I know Islam is evil therefore I will do everything in my power to stop it spreading in my neck of the woods.
ReplyDeleteROFLMAO!!!! Oh man, poor Dar SHIT really went on the mother-of-all BENDERS there didn't he folks......LOST IT completely.....you can hear his fingers smashing the keyboard, hahahahahaha :)
ReplyDelete"I am not Islamophobic, I know Islam is evil......"
oooohhhhhhhh, we are scared of Dar-SHIT cuz that backward ass cracker gonna do everything, yes everything in his power - remembers these LOONS are are powerful bunch indeed
c'mon son show us yer POWER :)
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAll very true Addulaziz......you know how fake it is when the HATERS of islam themselves don't believe a word of it and the fake blogger pleads/begs them to email theit phone numbers so they get a call from "her"......Man, how sad is hat, LOL :)
ReplyDeleteOff point.
ReplyDeleteThe group behind the proposed mega-mosque (Tablighi Jamaat), are gathering support for another attempt at building a mosque the size of Battersea Power Station. They have people as far away as India signing the online application.
Alan Craig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgKJLNPqozo) Mega-Mosque: TJ Take The Gloves Off!, has been speaking up against this for some time now. You do not have to be a UK resident to post your objections but hurry, Newham Council will be making its decision within the next few weeks.
http://pa.newham.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=neighbourComments&keyVal=M07PA5JY01R00
hey Hughie,
Deletethat link is brilliant just to read the objections of the Islam hating LOONs
anyway it gets my vote :)
anything to wind up you lot is GOOD!!!!
@skouti
ReplyDeleteoi ma kay loray, ja madar chod bun aur dal apna lora apni ma ki phudi may, randi kouti ka bacha, kanjar bhen chod ki aulad!
:) suck on that Mother Fucker!
Yo potato bwoy, thats not a very nice thing to say about the fake blogger......still funnt tho :)
Deletenow run along and sign the petition
http://pa.newham.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=neighbourComments&keyVal=M07PA5JY01R00
This post seems to be a response to my criticisms . . .
ReplyDelete"Some people here accused me after reading my last blog that my English is too American. Well, what else do you expect? I have grown up with American TV shows."
As I have pointed out . . . it is not just the American English - but the extent of it.
And especially the lack of any other influence. Americanism is actually third great influence on her.
First 2 are Arabic and Pakistani . . . yet if you read her blog - it is completely and unnaturally devoid of any references to being Arabic. Or Pakistani.
Then there was an idiotic claim that she was unable to read Quran in Arabic. Really?
Yet she works and lives in this mysterious . . . . "Arab" country.
So how about composing a post in Arabic or Urdu?
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It is only after this . . . that the mysterious "Bob" has appeared. oh come on!
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"So just think using your brains for a change, if I don't get influenced with American TV and speak American English then what else do I use? Mandarin or Spanish?"
It is apparent you have read my comments . . . but - I have used my brains.
Read the above . . . it is NOT just the American influence . . . but lack of any other.
Why is it - you did NOT address this point.
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" You can email your phone number to kshakila13@gmail.com. "
I fully intend to!
" I told her the whole story then how in the summer of 2011 I had got the English quran from Pakistan, and how the book seemed so fishy to me, nothing in it made sense. I told her that all my life I had merely read the quran without understanding it, but this time, I actually studied it like a scholar would, not only quran but the hadeeth and the sira and all that because one day I had accidentally stumbled upon www.alisina.org and then from there I got into jihadwatch and the rest, as they say, is history."
ReplyDeleteRight - and this person who is able to live and work in Dubai - went to school there. Yet cannot read Arabic! In about 25 years there?
Really?
- - -
It is expected from her story she has at least some command over Modern Standard Arabic.
Also her other background is "Pakistani".
She would have picked out up a lot of the Quranic Arabic - as many of its sentence structures and words are still used in MSA and a lot of them are pretty straight forward Arabic.
But this "American English" speaking person seems NOT to know any Arabic Aamiyah or Fusha. . .
Really?