Saturday, December 31, 2011

Happy New Year

I think in my last post I had forgotten to mention a few names, and some of them probably got offended, so here is a big thank to Trying to Follow Jesus, Kafir ibn al Shaitan, Anon, Dovecoder, bhigr, Ronald B, Bu Larue and Hesperado.  Please keep on reading my blog and comment on it, your support means a lot.

It is so easy to judge others, isn’t it? Has anyone ever tried to picture themselves in my shoes and think what I am going through? I guess the only person here who can empathize with me is Talitha, because she too is an ex -Muslim and comes from a similar family background.

I think you guys need to go back and read my posts again. I have mentioned it pretty clearly that I am a very new apostate, just been over two months now when I actually gave up Islam, and you guys expect me to pack my bags and escape to the United States or Canada or whichever country offers me asylum? Do you think it is that easy to wind up your 25 years of life living in the same country in just 2 months? To give up my job where I have been working for 11 years in a blink of an eye? To go to my bank and tell them I won’t be able to pay the interest free loan that they have given me to buy my car and that they can probably take the car and sell it themselves? I cannot just wake up one morning and run away from my existence. It needs proper planning and execution and it will happen at the right time, but for the time being, I am happy being just what I am – A closeted Apostate.

What about when I land in America or Canada? What then? Where will I live? Where will I work? Who will help me in getting a job and a legal status? There are far too many illegal immigrants in those countries as it is, and there is no way I am going to add one more to the list.

Besides that, what will I tell my family? Besides my parents, brothers and sister, I have a huge extended family, including grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins. I have 3 nieces and 2 nephews who love me to bits. Can I live with the fact that my brothers and sister would tell them that their favorite aunty is dead to them? That would be so devastating for me and even for them. I do not want to lose my family, and that is why I can never come out in the open with my apostasy.

As Talitha very aptly wrote in her last post:

For many apostates, the main reason they find themselves forced to remain living in secret is the horrible fact that everyone around them, their loved ones, family, friends, might and will leave them. It might not be "dangerous", and certainly other apostates have it much worse, but it is something that affects the human altogether in a very negative way. Something many people are not ready to throw themselves in.

Is it cowardly? Maybe. But I see it as someone who is living secretly as a homosexual, having to 'come out', not exactly, but a analogy to understand how it may be. For many apostates, being killed is not their worry, but they know for sure they will be beaten, they will be forever spoken of terribly, and they will continuously be told they are supposed to, by Allah's rule, be killed. Even if the apostate is NOT killed, the fact that everyone around them believes they should be... would be devastating to see that in the eyes of those they love. It is very hurtful and a person can only tolerate much.
I assure everyone that I have no intention to live here in the Middle East all my life and I am exploring all options to escape from here, but at the same time, I need to be sure that my future is secure and I do no end up being a burden to anyone. I just hope that this is the last time I am trying to defend myself or prove my sincerity, because from now on, I would like to focus on the main issue here, that is exposing Islam and to explicate my apostasy in detail.

So look out my next post, entitled “The Holocaust.”

Till then, I wish you all a very Happy New Year.

197 comments:

  1. Ah, the two faced hypocritical one is back with yet more hilarity in tow. One does not know where to begin in the funnyness here.

    "To go to my bank and tell them I won’t be able to pay the interest free loan that they have given me to buy my car and that they can probably take the car and sell it themselves? I cannot just wake up one morning and run away from my existence. It needs proper planning and execution and it will happen at the right time, but for the time being, I am happy being just what I am – A closeted Apostate."

    Yes being a hypocrite suits you down to the ground my dear.....no BALLS whatsoever. All you seem to worried about is your BMW X5. Relax you can get a better car elsewhere......ain't no biggie.

    "What about when I land in America or Canada? What then? Where will I live? Where will I work? Who will help me in getting a job and a legal status?"

    Man, for someone who claims to be smart/intelligent/independent etc you sure ain't showing any brain power whatsoever at all. Islam needs to get shot of you right away.

    "Besides that, what will I tell my family? "

    Holy shit.....did you not think (please try) it might be an idea to speak to your family first about your "road to damascus" moment. But no, you went ahead and shacked up with the right wing loony tunes brigade. Well sister, you made your bed, go lie in it


    "So look out my next post, entitled “The Holocaust.”"

    Oh good god......can't wait, don't spoil it for us, bet it will be a hoot :)

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  2. Skouti lets see what kind of a person you really are? Shall we?

    Skouti will you condemn any old man that has sex with a child?

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  3. Chirp....chirp....chirp...chirp.....

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  4. stevey, stevey, stevey, beat your cracker ass to the first post son :)

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  5. Notice how the Moslem skouti can’t answer the question about condemning old men that have sex with children. While there is little doubt close inbreeding has dulled his mind, there is enough gray matter left that allows him to understand that if he does condemn them he condemns his child raping prophet in the process.

    The Moslem’s cowardice silence shows two things: that he truly believes his filthy prophet had sex with children, and demonstrates how sick and twisted the death cult has made this headbanging zombie of Allah/Satan.

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  6. I don't believe I have suggested that you abandon your family and move to America post haste. I think I understand your pain. I was a Pagan in the military long before it became accepted. I had friends in high places who the padre and the army intelligence services were after. Although my life probably wasn't in danger I never rose in the ranks. And you couldn't explain that you weren't involved with Satanists either as Satan was invented by the people with the books. Things aren't quite as bad here now, but I've had a few run in with born again Christians and Jehovah's witnesses.
    I would suggest that you build up a trusted circle of people wherever you can. That way if you do have to leave, you will have a temporary sanctuary or two. I am a recent under stander of islam and it's evil thanks to a few muslim muppets on you tube who made death threats against me for asking pertinent questions about their cult of death. I am ignoring the muppets on here just as you asked. Saying that, I know they have no answer to the truth so they generally ignore my posts. All I will say is, "Geert Wilders rocks!"
    Take care.

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  7. He clearly proves that he is a pervert loving scumball. Who knows how many children he himself has diddled.

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  8. The road to Damascus eh! So the islamic muppet has to use tales from the despised bible now to make his point. Oh dear me. Sounds like poor old skulki is on the road to perdition himself:-)

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  9. stevey,

    the kiddy fiddling christian priests did bang up job on you......you really are stressed/obessessed over the whole subject. spare a thought for the liberated one......stevey is the type she will have to put up with, poor her

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  10. Steve
    I would like to know how that perverted old scumbag made the marvellous night journey to Jerusalem where he visited a mosque that wasn't built until about four hundred years after his descent into hell. Can anyone explain or did I read it wrong? Maybe I need to learn arabic, as the old excuse always goes?

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  11. Skouti

    You can't deflect your demonstrably vile beliefs here Moslem with your juvenile comments. You clearly are scum who won't even publicly condemn old men that have sex with children.

    You're in a bit of a spot aren't you, Moslem?

    It's good everyone to see the truth by your own actions. LOL

    Is it any wonder the Islamic world is nothing but a backward Sh*thole with inbred examples like you.

    Thanks for your demonstration of evil, Moslem.

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  12. stewey lad, thanks for your posts, highly entertaining, luv it immensely because I know it is burnin you up bad, your fingers slammin on the keyboard in anger and rage......classic.....keep goin fool as I thinks its brilliant.

    can't wait for your next demonstration of stupidity :)

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  13. No answers for little old me again, Awww! You can't argue with the truth can you,you hate filled scumbag?

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  14. Suggestions:

    To fellow readers: Do not respond to the troll skouti.

    To Liberated and Robert:
    There is now more than enough evidence with which to justify banning skouti. Please consider doing so for the sake of the readability of the comment section.

    To Liberated:
    How is it that you are able to work at a well-paying job at a bank in a Middle Eastern country (as you mentioned in your previous post) and not know Arabic? In your initial post, you wrote:

    "Have you ever read the Quran in English? I never did, I mean all my life I just recited the Quran in Arabic without understanding a single word until August of this year, when I purchased a copy of the English Quran and read the translation for the first time."

    You may of course have a plausible explanation, but this did strike me as odd.

    To Ali Sina and Robert:
    I'm trusting you, but sometimes even trustworthy people make mistakes or can be duped. We need to address the credibility issue sooner rather than later. I think we need more assurances from you that Liberated really is who she says she is. As a reader I feel we need to have first clearly established for us that some kind of adequate vetting process has taken place before we can get too carried away with this. You may be privy to information that makes you very confident of Liberated's credibility. We readers are not privy to that information, but some additional assurances from you both that a vetting process has taken place would help. It is not necessary to publish the personally identifying information itself to accomplish this. E.g., Ali Sina says he's seen photos of her. What other evidence, then, have you seen?

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  15. LOL I'm not burning up, Moslem I’m (and everyone else) having way too much fun watching you demonstrate what an intellectual midget you are. And how you’re nothing but a lowlife scum who will not condemn old men from having sex with children.

    You are doing us a service here, but, alas, your lack of IQ renders that point moot.

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  16. ah greenforest too is beginning to have doubts about this blog

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  17. Brilliant response, Skouti, you just can't help flexing that 1 inch mental bicep for all to see. LOL

    I guess that steel-trap of a mind comes from revering the most vile and despicable creature to ever walk the face of the Earth. Muhammad the diddler.

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  18. Hey guys, the first rule of the internet is don't feed the trolls. And not only do you keep feeding them, but you're giving them donuts and beer. If you ignore them, they lose interest in what they're doing. It's like a kid throwing a tantrum -- they want attention. Take that away, and eventually they go away.

    So just ignore skouti. The only people who think he has anything useful to say are the other trolls. Those of us who support Shakila don't need to waste time on the few douchebags.

    As for you, Shakila, I give you kudos. You're in an incredibly tough situation. It reminds me of a girl I dated many years ago who was a Jehovah's Witness. I'm not sure if you're familiar with this religion, but they have a rule that when a member leaves the religion, every person who is in the religion must shun that person. My friend had, like you, come to the conclusion that she was a member of a horrible cult, and was disgusted by what she finally realized they did. But if she openly broke with the Jehovah's Witnesses, her family, her friends...everyone she knew who was a Witness (which was most of the people she knew -- for obvious reasons cults don't like you associating with other people who aren't members) would stop talking to her.

    It took her about 2 years before she finally openly broke with the church, and just as expected her family, including her sister and her 2-year-old niece, cut off all contact with her. She still had quite a few friends, but it was very painful for her to lose her family like that.

    After several years, her sister started talking to her again, although her parents still don't (her father is a pastor), and she now gets to see her sister's kids (she had another one), but even then she's told me the relationship is very strained, because her sister wants her to come back and of course she doesn't.

    So yeah, it's a very, very difficult decision that will drastically change your life, and it is not one you should make lightly. My family is Catholic, and I broke with them when I was still in High School. I know it disappointed most of them, but they were never very devout so it was just sort of a general sadness for me, not anger or hatred. My relationship with my family now is good -- we just don't discuss religion. :)

    I'm glad to see that you have the intelligence and common sense to know that you can't just walk away. Good people, people who honor their word and who don't want to cause unnecessary pain and suffering, know that you have to make sure that if you do decide to leave, you do it so that the minimum of distress is caused in your wake, so I applaud your decision.

    Good luck.

    Jason

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  19. First is it 25 or 35 years as she mentioned in her previous post.

    Why don't people in this blog offer any help like donating money or even getting her to vatican or somewhere safe. People who hate just talk and their opnion is worthless.
    @Skouti, they will always talk about child sex but they will also forget to see what is happening in their back yard everyday. This is just because of lack of knowledge. There are 11 year old getting pregnant in USA but they don't notice that.
    @ To all haters, learn the history of that time. Muhammad (PBUH) has many enemies at that time too but we don't find history of anybody objecting that marriage. You should learn from your own historians this fact.

    And also make sure to put your daughters and sisters who are 10 or 11 years old on CHASTITY LOCK as they are getting screwed in public school buses. Damn just too much hate here. Place is burning.

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  20. Actually, ioffenyou, skouti is a gift, for he demonstrates what we say about Mohammedans is true. Fortunately most of them are so stupid they never comprehend that.

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  21. Greenforest,

    I hope you don't mind I respond to the questions posted to Liberated, as I am also from the Middle East, and can assure you that the language you need the least here is, ironically, Arabic.

    The most important language taught here, and also widely spoken, is English. At workplaces, at many schools, and almost all universities, English is the main language.

    In the streets you find road signs in both English and Arabic, at restaurants the menus are all in both English and Arabic, etc...

    There is no need whatsoever to learn Arabic if you lived in the bigger cities in the Middle East.

    I can also, perhaps, explain why Shakila has read the Qur'an in a language she doesn't understand. This, though sounding strange, is not strange at all among non-Arab speaking Muslims. In Islam, the main language of prayer is Arabic, even if one does not understand Arabic, they are taught to read Arabic text and are to recite the Qur'an in Arabic, which is called the true language of the Qur'an.

    I am an Arab apostate and have read the Qur'an in Arabic, but many of my non-Arab Muslim friends have never read the Qur'an in a language they understand, mainly because they were taught never to.

    I am not Robert Spencer or Ali Sina, but I can assure you from my side, but only as an anonymous apostate myself, that Shakila is a real person.

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  22. "@Skouti, they will always talk about child sex but they will also forget to see what is happening in their back yard everyday. This is just because of lack of knowledge. There are 11 year old getting pregnant in USA but they don't notice that."

    Good point Stoned7, you can see why HATERS like stewey keep blathering on about child sex. What is really funny is that with their hateful posts is it any wonder that the so called liberated one is very reluctant to leave the safwety of the middle east and come to the USA and put up with the HATERS there, LOL

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  23. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  24. Hi, I believe I was one of those who suggested (in response to an earlier post) leaving to come to Canada. But on reflection I realized that this is not at all easy to do. You are quite right about this. It may be what you need to do eventually, but possibly you will end up deciding to stay where you are. It's not up to any of us to tell you which of these paths to follow.

    You are hearing many responses from many points of view. I don't want to be just one more voice messing with your head, telling me to see things my way. I believe that it is the Spirit of God (= Spirit of Truth) who is showing you that Islam cannot be true. If I'm right, then the same Spirit of Truth will also continue to guide your steps.

    As you said, undoubtedly your most difficult challenge will be breaking with your Islamic community which will disown you if you make your apostasy public.

    Jesus actually predicted that some of his followers would have to live with just this kind of pain. Should you choose to be one of His followers, He will give you strength and courage to stand. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, there are underground Christ-followers in almost every country, probably including yours. If you can find some believers in Jesus, I am sure they would be glad to assist you in your quest for spiritual truth and freedom, even if they have to do it in secret. It may not be simple or easy (I am somewhat informed about what life is like under persecution, although I have never had to live with persecution myself) but I am sure it is possible. Jesus said that with God all things are possible.

    I will pray for you to see clearly and to walk wisely.

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  25. Talitha,

    I understand the part about many non-Arab Muslims reciting and praying in Arabic. I quoted Liberated's statement there to show that by her account she did not know Arabic as of August 2011.

    I am also aware that English is widely spoken in the Middle Eastern countries as a second language. However, Arabic is the main language in most of the traditionally-defined Middle Eastern countries (exceptions: Iran, Turkey, Israel, Cyprus) and lots of people there don't speak English (or not much). Arabic is the official language in many of these countries as far as I'm aware. If one's professional role, in a country where Arabic is the main language, requires one to deal with a wide variety of different people with different educational backgrounds, etc., employers (in general, anywhere) would require employees to be able to speak and understand (a) the official language(s), and (b) the Arabic of fellow employees and customers who have no English or minimal English. Knowing Arabic could be at least a technical requirement for getting hired for the job, even if in practice one might be able to get by without Arabic in most situations by simply turning to an Arabic-speaking fellow employee. So if you work in a bank and the particular Arabic customer you are dealing with does not speak English or doesn't know it well enough, what do you do? You either have to switch to Arabic or, if you don't know it, get help from an employee who knows it. Due to this type of situation (and the above considerations), I am not sure how likely it is that an employer looking for an employee for a high-paying position at a bank would hire someone who did not know Arabic versus someone who did (in addition to English).

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  26. Shakila, I didn't mean to upset you. I know this is very new to you and it must be incredibly traumatic. After reading this post, I understand why you are not planning on leaving right away. On the other hand, I can only imagine the longer you do stay, the more dangerous your life becomes (not to mention stressful).

    As for what to do when you get to America (or even Israel or England), you would be amazed at the support you would receive here. As I mentioned in my last comment, you have wonderful contacts in Ms. Geller and Mr. Spencer. I have little doubt they can help you. But you are right in your need to do this slowly.

    While I understand your torn over your family, how can you still be so close to them when they and you have such a philosophical difference? When you know that they would disown you in an instant, should you out yourself? Should that not open your eyes to how little they respect you as an individual?

    Yes, I know it is a difficult dilemma. But the first step is realizing and waking up to the reality that at your age, you do not need their approval and the fact you would never get it anyway should open your eyes. It's great to have nephews and nieces who love and admire you. Maybe the would hear that you died. But just maybe, your bravery in leaving will influence them to fight this cult of death.

    Whatever you choose and however you choose to do it, I pray for your safety and courage.

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  27. Greenforest,

    Then I probably misunderstood.

    As for the rest, I'm not sure where you get your information from about the Arabic language, but no, Arabic is not required.

    I am in the Middle East myself, and am an Arab, in a country where Arabic is the official language.

    I am not sure which countries you refer to when you say "traditionally Middle Eastern countries", but any country which is known to have oil (which is all the Gulf countries), for example, or famous for its tourism industry, or media, or even academic institutes, then many expats are hired with no need to speak a single word of Arabic.

    You can definitely find a job in the Middle East without having to speak Arabic. Of course, there are jobs which require fluent Arabic, but if you don't speak it, you simply apply to another position which does not require it - which are quite abundant.

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  28. p.s. Talitha,

    "I am not Robert Spencer or Ali Sina, but I can assure you from my side, but only as an anonymous apostate myself, that Shakila is a real person."

    By what means? Have you communicated with her through email? Have you met her personally?

    What I'm trying to do here is get Liberated and Spencer et al. to take this issue of veracity seriously and get it resolved before this gets too far. It's better if we (friends of apostates) get this issue resolved now, before the hostile parties come in later and discover something that we failed to detect due to our uncritical enthusiasm.

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  29. too late greenforest.....this fake blogger has been caught out already

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  30. Greenforest:

    How do you propose to test an anonymous person?

    If they give too much information, they are in danger.

    All I know to do is read a person and see if they sound legit. Most fakers give themselves away in short order.

    Ali Sina himself sometimes has people coming on and pretending to be ex Muslims. And he says, No, you are just a Hindu. I can tell from the way you talk.

    I imagine Bob talked to this woman at length til he was satisfied with her legitimacy. She sounds legit to me.

    Muslims like skouti will never be satisfied because they don't want to believe that some Muslims eventually come to find their religion disgusting.

    Oh well! Missed opportunity for learning.

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  31. p.p.s. Talitha,

    Okay, I just read your 2:20 PM post. Understood; you are more knowledgeable of the region than I am. Ultimately, though, we need verification and corroboration to an extent that Robert and Ali Sina just haven't provided, perhaps because they don't take sufficiently seriously the need to provide this verification and so on for the many readers who may have questions.

    All of this, BTW, probably would be moot if Liberated was just claiming to be an Islam critic and publishing her criticisms. The criticisms themselves would then be the focus, and the proof of her position would be in the pudding/substance of her writing and the fact that she is putting herself at some real risk of harm for doing so. The issue of veracity here arises precisely because Liberated presents as an apostate, plus the fact that our opponents are extremely hostile, dismissive, and hyper-skeptical whenever someone claims to be an ex-Muslim and is criticizing Islam. Even if all of Liberated's criticisms of Islam are correct and supported, our opponents will keep harping on the issue of whether she is really an ex-Muslim and they'll use this to avoid having to deal with the substance of her case against Islam. I think that we can largely head off those kinds of attacks by dealing with the issue of veracity now, and then get past it.

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  32. Jeff,

    As I already indicated in the previous thread, we can test veracity of an anonymous person through relying on trusted and/or independent sources. For example, if Spencer and Ali Sina said, "Yes, Liberated is for real. We've met her in person, she's shown us her writing and has discussed these ideas with us in person, she's shown us evidence of her personal history which checks out," and so on.

    To some much more minimal extent we've already started that process by relying on Sina and Spencer as sources who are in email contact with Liberated. I'm just saying that they need to go further and present testimony that attests to more compelling evidence than just email contacts.

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  33. Greenforest,

    I think for these hostiles Muslims, the issue wouldn't be different whether Liberated was a real person or not (though I assure you, she is).

    If Liberated posted her photos, a voice clip of herself, and pushing it further even a YouTube of herself, the hostility will not cease.

    It will increase further.

    I have seen responses to apostates by hostile Muslims. If they were Arab apostates, like myself (I was a very religious Muslim, at one point contemplated wearing Niqab out of religious conviction), they would claim that I "never understood true Islam" and so my apostasy is not because of problems within Islam, but because I "didn't take the time to understand it" and was "brainwashed by Islamophobes".

    For people like Liberated who does not speak Arabic, they will simply say: Oh, you didn't read the Qur'an in Arabic and so that's why you left Islam, because if you read it in Arabic you will see how different the text is in its original form compared to its translation and will see its beauty and miraculous teachings for what they are. Or, simply, they would bring up ridiculous allegations like "she is from the CIA".

    It's a lose-lose situation.

    So I agree with Liberated that she ignores the cries of these Muslims saying "prove yourself, Robert!" as if Liberated is Robert (which, just as Ali Sina said, would mean Robert is a very pretty woman), because they will not cease. And she should focus on telling her story, and share what shocked her on her journey of rediscovering what she took up as a religion for all these years.

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  34. Greenforest:

    But very few have met either Ali Sina or Bob Spencer in person! Some people claim they are fakes.

    And meeting Liberated is no guarantee either. She could be a Middle Eastern Christian posing as a Muslim. Or any number of other things.

    Bob was obviously satisfied from talking to her at length that Liberated is legit. She sounds legit to me. I think that's enough.

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  35. p.s. and Jeff, I'm not talking about wasting time convincing inconsequential trolls like skouti. I'm talking about getting everything nailed down now veracity-wise before our opponents in the mainstream media decide they want to rip apart Liberated or her mentors Robert Spencer and Ali Sina. (You may have noticed what the MSM has tried to do to Rifqa Bary and Ayaan Hirsi Ali--they've tried to destroy the credibility of these women). You know the media won't use proper proof; they'll just cite the absence of evidence to "prove" their claim that Liberated either doesn't exist or isn't who she says she is. They'll publish the attack articles, then suppress/ignore any response we may be able to generate after the fact to counter them.

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  36. "I think that we can largely head off those kinds of attacks by dealing with the issue of veracity now, and then get past it. "

    No you can't.

    Muslims argue that practically any apostate--even world famous ones--aren't REALLY apostates.

    Intelligent, educated Muslims in huge numbers argue that George Bush did 9/11, that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real, that the Holocaust never happened and that the moon landings are faked.

    You are NOT going to convince them by telling them that Bob Spencer met Liberated and vouches for her. Or that you have. Or that President Obama has.

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  37. Talitha and Jeff,

    Surely you two agree with me that a bit more testimony from Spencer and Sina would be an improvement? All we can say so far is that they've communicated in writing with her through email and on a website and Sina says he saw pictures. Is it more than that? They haven't told us, but I think they could very easily improve matters with a bit more contact with her and a bit more information. The more evidence they have the less probability this is a fake.

    It is naive to assume our opponents would not try something like send a fake apostate for "help" to Sina or Spencer. I don't necessarily believe Liberated is a fake, but I can't rule it out with significant confidence based on the evidence thus far. (And I'm talking as someone who is very sympathetic to apostates and who has worked with them in the past).

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  38. Jeff,

    "But very few have met either Ali Sina or Bob Spencer in person! Some people claim they are fakes."

    Sure, and some people maintain that the Earth is flat. Spencer has been on television news as a guest for several years now, and Sina has established himself as an Islam critic by the substance of his website for over a decade now. Liberated is new.

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  39. My theory is that skouti is a computer.

    Zionist Central in Los Angeles has created a program to respond to critics of Islam using a simple template of obfuscation and scorn mixed with poor analytical skills.

    Their purpose of course is to make Muslims look far sillier than they are and just generally to sow confusion in the world.

    They succeed brilliantly.

    None of us have ever MET skouti and so I feel I am justified in my conclusion.

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  40. @Steve, How will you comprehend this that Jews talk about Jesus as a bad person who had his eyes on women.
    You need to watch Nat Geo Documentry "Waiting for Aramageddon" which shows what Jews think about Jesus and how citizens of USA financially support jewsish people.
    You can see the picture anyway you want but truth prevails.

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  41. Jeff,

    Seriously, enough about the troll. We need to get Spencer and Sina to tell us the nature of the evidence that they have (personal interview? Video conference)? If Liberated is serious about doing a book, any credible worthy publisher is going to have to do some verification and background checking. Likewise if someone such as a (rare) sympathetic journalist were doing a story about Liberated--they'd have to meet her and verify and corroborate.

    I'm surprised I actually have to make this case to my fellow commenters, people who one would thing would want what's best for Liberated if she's genuine, and for Spencer who's gone ahead and endorsed her repeatedly by posting her articles prominently on JihadWatch to a pretty large audience. A vetting process beforehand should be standard procedure. Standards of evidence, folks, standards of evidence.

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  42. Ok people,

    I hope this helps: yesterday morning (my timezone) I emailed Robert about a concern I had regarding Liberated. He assured me my worry was unwarranted.

    I did meet Robert in person years ago. I think he was in the country on some kind of a fact-finding trip or something. And me, I just happened to be there. Coincidentally we ended up being fellow-travelers for a week or so :-)

    My perspective is that Robert puts effort researching what he posts on his website. His main goal is to warn the Judeo-Christian world about jihad; were he to create a fake Liberated blog and get busted, his whole life's scholarship would lose credibility and nobody would believe him anymore. He's not gonna be that stupid!

    I have never met Ali Sina.

    Anyway, good to read Liberated's latest blog entry! I'm so glad about her. She truly is one smart woman ;-) I'd take off my hat if I owned one (ok, how about a fez then? :D)

    Stay cool Liberated, stand tall and don't hesitate to roar out loud; you've earned your place in the congregation of the victors! Take time to bask in the sunshine of freedom and to know that you rock, girl!

    Happy New Year all!

    ReplyDelete
  43. ...and here's all Robert has provided thus far:

    "Recently I received an email from a remarkably courageous woman in a Muslim country. Raised a Muslim, she practiced Islam all her life. However, she has now left Islam, and is now -- because of Islam's death penalty for apostasy -- living a precarious existence in her native land. She has now started a blog, Liberated, in which she will detail her journey and keep us up-to-date on her experiences. Please bookmark it and visit it regularly. Here is an excerpt from her first entry, in which her relief and resentment at her longtime intellectual and spiritual bondage are palpable"

    That's great and generous of Robert, but is it wise based on the evidence he cites, i.e., a mere email correspondence?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Trying to follow Jesus,

    "I hope this helps: yesterday morning (my timezone) I emailed Robert about a concern I had regarding Liberated. He assured me my worry was unwarranted."

    Assured you with what? Again, not asking for personal details, but formally, did he claim to have met her, or interviewed her via skype...what did he provide?

    ReplyDelete
  45. Talitha,

    "...whether Liberated was a real person or not (though I assure you, she is)."

    Again, how do you know this? Email correspondence? Phone conversation? What?

    ReplyDelete
  46. and Trying to follow Jesus,

    "My perspective is that Robert puts effort researching what he posts on his website. His main goal is to warn the Judeo-Christian world about jihad; were he to create a fake Liberated blog and get busted, his whole life's scholarship would lose credibility and nobody would believe him anymore. He's not gonna be that stupid!"

    I agree. Robert certainly seems to be a solid guy and what he says about Islam checks out and is backed up with references. The issue is what exactly does he have in this case? An interview? Did Liberated take a flight to the U.S. and meet with Robert?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Greenforest:

    We don't know YOU are a real person. YOU don't know Talitha or I am real people.

    You just gotta calm down and quit sweating.

    Take Liberated as you would take anyone else making a claim on a blog. You wouldn't freak out if someone said they were a Christian convert to Islam would you?

    Just read and relax.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I'll only reveal my side: I had concerns regarding some of the contents of Liberated's blog entry (posted 30/12/2011) and I emailed Robert about it.

    I am now at peace with Liberated's personal story. YMMV, and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. This is about Liberated, her blog and her documented struggle of what she is going through.

    Seriously guys, if you're gonna be a doubting Thomas, then I'm afraid you're in for a long wait before you metaphorically get to touch Jesus' nail wounds in person.

    And, amen to Jeff's comment above!

    ReplyDelete
  49. Jeff,

    You know I'm a real person, and we both know Liberated is a real person. What we don't have is evidence to support the issue at hand, namely, Liberated's credibility as an apostate, a question which relates directly to Spencer's credibility now that he's endorsed her. I trust Spencer, but he's human. He can and has made mistakes, just as we all have. It is precisely due to these sorts of possible errors that journalists, researchers, publishers, and anyone with any common sense whatsoever would want to verify and corroborate information and sources before publishing and presenting their claims as fact to the world. It is a basic responsibility.

    "And, amen to Jeff's comment above!"

    Yeah, sure guys, shut off your critical faculties and bliss out. But please do not do so when important matters are at hand.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Shakila,

    I assume your testament is sincere and honest. I can hardly imagine how difficult it must be for you in your predicament. You have to dissemble with practically everyone you know and no one wants to do that with those whom they love.

    Moreover, I am shocked at the callous attitudes of many of the commenters. I suspect many of them are young and not seasoned enough to reflect thoughtfully on your circumstances.

    You are in my prayers.

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  51. "Moreover, I am shocked at the callous attitudes of many of the commenters."

    Me too. Some of them don't seem to care about journalistic standards.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Hi Liberated,

    Excellent essay: clear, firm yet in a brightly friendly way addressing many of the issues -- some elusive or amorphous, some more definite -- which had been giving us various forms of pause; now giving us food for thought. Of course, being me, I still have a couple of quibbles; but for now at least, I'll let them slide and wish you too a happy new year.

    - Hesp

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  53. Green Forest,

    "There is now more than enough evidence with which to justify banning skouti."

    Among the obvious reasons we could all list, there is to me his most annoying fault: he's been repeating himself like a broken record for days. What he has to say is bad enough said once; intolerable said twice. Three times, it's time to pull his plug.

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  54. Shayne

    "how can you still be so close to them when they and you have such a philosophical difference? "

    Ironically, I have become estranged from my older sister -- my choice -- to a great extent caused by her PC MC defense of Islam (even extending to admiration). I haven't seen or talked to her in almost two years now. I have done this not only because her reflexive defenses of Islam annoy the hell out of me, but also as a matter of principle. It's sad to have to do that; but at some point, I don't want to be around people who defend Islam and who won't even engage in a fair discussion about the counterpoint without indulging in all the typical maddening PC MC rhetoric that we have come to know and hate.

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  55. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  56. Hi Liberated,

    I certainly don't need any mention. I'm just happy that you have shared your story with us. You seem to be in less danger than you might have been if you were in Pakistan. I assume the rulers of your present country are more interested in stability and business than they are in enforcing Islamic orthodoxy.

    If I had to make an observation, I would say you should keep your eyes open. You have an extended family of observant Muslims. What would happen if they suspected you were as estranged from Islam as you are? Is there any possibility they would arrange a "family" trip back to Pakistan for you, and force you into a marriage there? You can avoid going on the hajj by claiming you made a pledge to only go when you got married. How would you react if your family put serious pressure on you, and didn't want to take "no" for an answer? You could put yourself at risk by allowing yourself accompany your family to more overtly Islamic countries.

    Above all, continue sharing your thoughts and experiences with us.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Greenforest,

    Your concern is compellingly argued. However, the nature of the beast is that verification may be necessarily insufficient to satisfy. For me, there's a je ne sais quoi about Liberated that moves me to teeter barely in the direction of trusting her story; but as you say, the reason for verification is important.

    The question then becomes (as William Buckley used to say): if we can't get satisfactory verification, what do we do then?

    Perhaps a useful exercise for you to provide would be an explanation & description of non-negotiable ways to verify that would satisfy you?

    ReplyDelete
  58. Hi Liberator - wish you a healthy and Happy New Year. Enjoy life - make the best of it, even if it means keeping your status passive. What really counts is how your heart and mind feel and think. Good luck.

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  59. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  60. Shakila,

    Here's wishing you a safe, prosperous and happy new year. I can only imagine how terrifying the thought would be of cutting all ties with the familiar, both loved (like family and friends) and loathed (like the oppression of an uncompromising faith you can no longer believe in)would be like. I have had friends, who for changing denominations within the Christian faith, have been thrown out of their homes and disowned. I merely had an aunt write every common relative she knew to tell them I'd joined a "Satanic cult" because she couldn't accept my denomination as "Christian" by her interpretation. Even up-rooting ones self from the familiar to a totally different country with no guarantee of a job and a future takes immense courage (and that is with the expected support of friends and family).

    Still, you can go on quietly witnessing for Christ by being an example and a disciple through your daily walk, your behavior. Our righteous living is a living testimony of our faith in the message of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

    The Book of Mormon is full of stories of people living under the deadly oppressive watch of unbelievers, not allowing the open practice of worshiping the living god, who none-the-less carried a continually prayer in their hearts. It is written in our extra-Biblical scriptures called "The Doctrines and Covenants": (from Section 122)

    5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

    6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

    7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son [or, in your case, daughter], that all these things shall give thee eexperience, and shall be for thy good.

    8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

    9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

    Our God and Creator continue to protect and guide you I pray, in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Amen.

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  61. Greenforest and Hesperado,

    May I suggest many of your fears are misplaced?

    The fact is, believing Liberated's story has no long-term negative consequences, even if it's false.

    Her story is not something that can be quoted to illustrate any point. Even if Robert had seen her personally, he would not be able to use her story in a debate, because that would violate his cardinal principle of only citing mainstream, verifiable sources.

    Liberated does not claim to be an Islamic authority, having only recently begun to read the Koran in a language she understands. She lives in a Muslim country involved with commercial interests, and likely ruled by a stable royal family more interested in attracting business than in enforcing Sharia law.

    Liberated's family will likely disown her if she openly leaves Islam, but as a poster pointed out, that would not be substantially different from Jehovah Witness practices. I personally think she might be in more danger than she thinks of getting railroaded into an arranged marriage, but that is again not anything which is useful.

    In other words, even if skouti himself comes out and say he can actually speak proper English when he wants to, and created Liberated himself, it simply is not anything which will harm anti-jihadists. As long as Liberated chooses to remain anonymous, her story is not something which can be cited to persuade people.

    Also, there are plenty of documented, verified incidents of abuse in Muslin culture which is far more vicious than anything Liberated fears.

    So, it really comes down to a matter of whether you feel it is personally worthwhile for you to engage on this blog. If you simply want to learn about Islam, you'll get more bang for the buck reading Spencer or Ali Sina. If you want to follow an attractive personality working her way out of a cult, then read Liberated.

    My advice is to not worry so much about verification in this case. Robert and Ali Sina have attested to her authenticity. But, even if they are wrong in this case, there's nothing to lose but a bit of face.

    ReplyDelete
  62. One might lose as much by failing to trust avowed apostates as one stands to gain by being suspicious.

    But I understand the concern over Islam-critics being fooled and thus made to look all too willing to believe whatever confirms their perspective.

    I recall once there was a scholar who disagreed with some scientific theory. The scientists in support of the theory called the scholar a fool, an idiot, someone completely ignorant of the facts and science involved.

    The scholar decided to write a pamphlet under a pseudonym. The pamphlet was an argument for the scientific theory. The scholar pretended to be completely in favor of the theory. He set out all the facts and theories adduced by the scientists in favor of that theory.

    The pamphlet got rave reviews. The scientists in favor of the theory all agreed the writer was brilliant, a master, an expert. They said it was the best exposition ever written of the theory. Whereupon the writer of the pamphlet revealed that he was the scholar they had recently called a fool, ignorant of the theory, an idiot. He said he still, despite understanding the theory, disagreed with it.

    It was a brilliant debate gambit. By means of a bit of masquerade, the scholar proved, out of his own most virulent opponents' mouths, that he did indeed understand the theory with which he disagreed, arguably understood it better than they did, as they said it was the best explanation they had seen!

    Not exactly sure what relevance that story has to this situation. Anyway, when you are getting to know someone, it's only natural to be a little cautious to begin with. Though, Greenforest, I think you are probably being too cautious.

    ReplyDelete
  63. I have seen the epithet "troll" used many, many times. I have almost never agreed with its use. In almost every case, it has seemed to me that the usage was a sign of poverty. The person shouting "troll" had run out of arguments. The "troll" might have been annoying, but the annoyance was due to the fact that the "troll" disagreed -- it was not that the "troll" was on the whole maliciously motivated.

    But skouti is an exception. In all the many many cases where I have seen the term "troll" used, his is virtually the only case where I have thought the term really fully and objectively merited. He didn't merely disagree with people here. If only he did, if only he genuinely engaged.

    I followed a long, long series of interchanges between him and Greenforest (for example, here: http://liberatednow.blogspot.com/2011/12/thank-you.html ).
    Greenforest was unfailingly measured, polite, playing it in terms of straight debate the whole way. And the whole way skouti replied with innuendo, ad hominem, evasion, attempts at manipulation, and a certain sneering quality.

    Despite Greenforest's almost saintly persistance in flawlessly calm and polite argument, skouti kept on in a cooly, indeed what I think must be called a sadistically deceptive, manipulative, slander and propaganda mode. He was not here to argue and debate. He was here to twist the knife in people if he could. A kind of jihad, I guess.

    Perhaps he thought his own cause justified his sadistic style of slander. As killer jihadists feel justified.

    In any event, though I have rarely if ever approved of the use of the word "troll" in the countless times I've seen it used, skouti is the one case where I think the usage is dead on.

    Further, if someone like Greenforest, whose truly remarkable patience and measuredness is demonstrated in the link I posted, ends up designating skouti a troll, that's saying a lot. I've seen Greenforest's measured, impartial, and thoughtful comments in other places for, I suppose, years, and I don't recall him ever using the word "troll" before.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Oh dear, what quandry our Islam hating band of brothers are in. Is the fake blogger a real person? Or have they been royally duped ? Never mind the Prophet Muhammed being real eh greenforest, looks like you already have your own doubts about Spencer's creation and rightly so. The posts from this fake blogger do not stack up.

    1. Claims to be a 35 year old woman, living and working in the middle east but doesn't speak arabic
    2. Claims to be an apostate, but never spoke to her parents about this life changing moment. Instead runs into the arms of proven Islam hating polemics like sina and spencer. If you were planning to leave a religion, would you do this ?
    3. Claims to be intelligent/independent but posts so far show no evidence that this person has actually thought through the mechanics of her actions. She sounds very superficial and not at all grown up. It is like she is playing a game.
    4. By shacking up with Spencer et al, this blogger already has a credibility problem.

    I wouldn't be surprised if greenforest & co were punked by this blogger. The Islam hating movement is not a large one as such, it is a vocal minority, not mainstream at all. It's bark is worse than its bite so it seeks attention however it can. It. is short of funds and regularly asks for donations.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Sharia Adherence Mosque Survey: Correlations between Sharia Adherence and Violent Dogma in U.S. Mosques

    "A random survey of 100 representative mosques in the U.S. was conducted to measure the correlation between Sharia adherence and dogma calling for violence against non-believers. Of the 100 mosques surveyed, 51% had texts on site rated as severely advocating violence; 30% had texts rated as moderately advocating violence; and 19% had no violent texts at all. Mosques that presented as Sharia adherent were more likely to feature violence-positive texts on site than were their non-Sharia-adherent counterparts. In 84.5% of the mosques, the imam recommended studying violence-positive texts. The leadership at Sharia-adherent mosques was more likely to recommend that a worshipper study violence-positive texts than leadership at non-Sharia-adherent mosques. Fifty-eight percent of the mosques invited guest imams known to promote violent jihad. The leadership of mosques that featured violence-positive literature was more likely to invite guest imams who were known to promote violent jihad than was the leadership of mosques that did not feature violence-positive literature on mosque premises."

    ReplyDelete
  66. Bernard Lewis, renowned historian of Islam and the Middle East, says Islam imposes, without limit of time or space, the duty to subjugate non-Muslims

    In The Political Language of Islam, pp. 72-73:

    "...it is the duty of those who have accepted them [Allah's word and message] to strive unceasingly to convert or at least to subjugate those who have not. This obligation is without limit of time or space. It must continue until the whole world has either accepted the Islamic faith or submitted to the power of the Islamic state.”

    ReplyDelete
  67. Skouti,
    Everyone will be doubting you are really muslim now!
    Your last post stated "Never mind the Prophet Muhammed being real eh greenforest, looks like you already..."
    And you failed to type (piss be upon him) after the pedophile's name.

    ReplyDelete
  68. stay classy as a HATER :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfIuZGnxTa4

    enjoy

    ReplyDelete
  69. skouti, you are a LIAR and a HATER

    Enjoy :)

    A standard Islamic legal manual says a female ruler is not permitted. Why? Because of statements from Muhammad

    For example, this statement in Sahih al-Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 9, Book 88, Number 219:

    Narrated Abu Bakra:During the battle of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a Word (I heard from the Prophet). When the Prophet heard the news that the people of Persia had made the daughter of Khosrau their Queen (ruler), he said, "Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler."

    ReplyDelete
  70. Greenforest:

    You are missing the point over and over and over again.

    No I DON'T know you are a real person. Yes, I know that someone is typing stuff into the comment box.

    But I don't know if anything that you say about yourself is true or not. Nor do you know anything about me, regardless of what I say.

    But if you tell me that you live in Denver and work as a librarian and that your Dad drove a tractor for a living, I will believe you ... unless you start sounding like you are really a Chinese person who knows nothing about Denver or America and have no notion about libraries etc.

    One evaluates internet credibility on the basis of of things like sincerity, consistency, plausibility, etc. But there will always be room for doubt.

    I think you just have to conclude that neither Bob nor Ali Sina have what you would consider satisfactory reason to accept Liberty's bona fides, but that they are satisfied nonetheless.

    Then you can quit reading the blog, or follow along with some doubts or whatever you like.

    But I know many Middle Easterners and I have known other Muslims who left the religion and Liberty's claims seem normal and unexceptionable to me. I have no more reason to doubt her than any other blogger.

    I am active on a Middle Eastern Muslim forum and have been for years. There was a native apostate there who declared his atheism and teased the other members about Islam. NONE of the members of the forum--even the most radical Muslims--doubted that he was exactly what he said: a fellow citizen raised Muslim who had become a secret atheist. Why? Because he sounded legit. He knew the stuff that they knew, talked like a local boy, sounded sincere, etc. etc.

    So I mean: Whatcha gonna do? Post in every comment section a reiteration of your doubts? Or just assume Liberty's good faith and proceed on the assumption that she is what she says, while reserving final judgment? I think the latter is the most productive course.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Skouti,

    I don't understand, are you defending Islam by that video? Because the video you just shared displays the intolerance Muslims exhibit towards others who disagree with them, in the worst manner possible. The fact that this is happening in Britain of all places, is terrible.

    Here is a video of a convert from Islam to Christianity and how he's living in fear in the UK itself, terrible:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDB4LdoOiXo

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  72. skouti, stay classy as a HATER

    Enjoy :)

    In core Islamic texts, Muhammad speaks of war booty

    From Sahih al-Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 4, Book 53, Number 351:

    Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:

    Allah's Apostle said, "Booty has been made legal for me."

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  73. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  74. Jeff,

    With respect, I don't think you get the point I'm making. If you do, and disagree, that's fine. I've expressed my views for Liberated and others to read, and I don't really have anything to add to the whole standards of evidence issue etc., here. This is obviously something that matters to some people, while for others, not so much.

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  75. Talitha,

    Re skouti, sometimes it's best to "let sleeping dogs lie."

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  76. skouti, keep enjoying being a HATER :)

    Muhammad says that one day the very trees and stones will help Muslims to kill Jews.

    He says it both in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, Islam's two most canonical hadith collections:

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:

    Narrated Abdullah bin Umar:
    "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, "O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!" ' "


    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

    Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:
    "Allah's Apostle [Muhammad] said, 'You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, "O Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him." ' "


    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    "Allah's Apostle
    [Muhammad] said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." ' "

    ReplyDelete
  77. skouti, stay MANLY as a HATER

    Enjoy :)

    In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says the minds of women are deficient

    In Sahih al-Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 3, Book 48, Number 826:

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes.' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind.' "

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  78. skouti, stay in charge as a HATER

    Enjoy :)

    In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says beat your wife, no questions asked

    In Sunan Abu Dawud, a canonical hadith collection:

    Book 11, Number 2142:

    Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:

    "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.' "

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  79. Shakila:

    I love you. Happy to know you! I support you and believe in you. Don't worry about this issue anymore. It will go away. Just keep writing! :)

    ReplyDelete
  80. "Skouti,

    I don't understand, are you defending Islam by that video? Because the video you just shared displays the intolerance Muslims exhibit towards others who disagree with them, in the worst manner possible. The fact that this is happening in Britain of all places, is terrible"

    Talitha,

    Are you aware of what the EDL (english defence league) is ? It is an openly racist organisation made of of white football thugs. they are led by tommy robinson (the man who gets slapped by the muslim). robinson is a convicted felon. at their meetings they chant racists slogans and make nazi salutes etc.

    ReplyDelete
  81. skouti, stay classy as a HATER

    Enjoy :)

    In core Islamic texts, a system of discrimination akin to Jim Crow is imposed by Allah and Muhammad on non-Muslims

    An example from Sahih Muslim, a canonical hadith collection:

    Book 26, Number 5389

    "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: 'Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.' "

    See also Qur'an 9:29:

    "Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger [Muhammad] have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth [Islam], out of those who have been given the Book [the Bible, given to "the people of the Book," Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of [Muslim] superiority and they [Christians and Jews] are in a state of subjection [dhimmitude, i.e., second-class legal status for non-Muslims]."

    In obedience to Qur'an 9:29 and other core Islamic texts, the infamous Pact of Umar, (Umar being one of the successors to Muhammad as leader of the Muslims) details many other forms of humiliation and discrimination Jews and Christians were required to submit to in order to save their lives. The only way to escape that discrimination was to die, or convert to Islam, or, if possible, emigrate beyond the expanding Islamic state.

    Jim Crow at least was understood to be of merely human origin, and therefore we could get rid of it. By contrast, Islam's discrimination system of dhimmitude is rooted in the Qur'an and other core texts and thought by mainstream Muslim scholars around the globe to be valid (if not always enforceable) till the end of time. Even when not formally on the law books of Muslim-majority nations, the system of discrimination against non-Muslims is often present informally in the ethos and deepest assumptions of the peoples of those nations. A culture of Allah-mandated superiority to non-Muslims often informally pushes them into a lower social and legal status and deprives them of even the most basic human rights. In Islamic doctrine, there is no concept of general human rights equally possessed by all.

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  82. skuti - I generally do not believe a Muslim because they are perpetual liars.

    Prove me wrong, send us a link to a video showing EDL leader chanting "racists", doe not mean anti-Islamic, abuse and making Nazi salute. The EDL's agenda is not racist - they have membership from all colors and creeds. They see a serious problem with the thugs like you, the Islamists, are not taken care off. I can understand that if I was living in that country. It would have been wrong if no one stood up against the tyrants.

    If you are concern about Nazis - the Islamists and Nazis go hand in hand, the holocaust denials. You are so dumb that you don't even notice the hypocrisy in the only original sentence you posted in the whole week.

    Link or no link? Your choice.

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  83. skouti, keep on teaching HATE if you can't stop yourself

    enjoy :)

    TV clip of 3 year old Muslim girl being taught to HATE

    ReplyDelete
  84. hey dar-schan

    stay classy with EDL NAZIS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0u-sv13C0g&feature=related&skipcontrinter=1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pWQRlJi_4&feature=related&skipcontrinter=1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB-1BF0ZOEY&skipcontrinter=1

    "The EDL's agenda is not racist - they have membership from all colors and creeds."

    All evidence to the contrary, LOL. Hell, you can download the EDL membership list off the internet as these backward ass clowns were too stupid to protect their website and it got hacked......nice :)

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  85. StonedMolsem.

    "Skouti, they will always talk about child sex but they will also forget to see what is happening in their back yard everyday."

    Notice how this Moslem also demonstrates the inability to differentiate between bad behaviour and acceptable behaviour that is the key here. They try to compare their reverence for the monster Muhammad with behaviour that is deemed unacceptable by decent people in the West. Their moral compasses have be so badly damaged by their foul and despicable ideology they can't see the difference anymore.

    It’s good for everyone to see how their warped minds work.

    They revere one of the worst monsters history has to offer. Muhammad was the scum of the Earth and it has defined them too.

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  86. I don't support any racists there may be in the EDL, skouti. And if the EDL is racist as an organization, I don't support the EDL as an organization.

    stay classy as a Nazi-lover, skouti, you little Zieg heiler, you. :)

    ReplyDelete
  87. "We [Muslims] smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them."

    -- Muhammad's companion and pupil Abu Ad-Darda talking, according to Al-Bukhari (compiler of the most canonical hadith collection) as quoted by Ibn Kathir, the Muslim world's most respected Qur'an expositor.

    The Qur'an says Muslims must not be friends with non-Muslims, except as a pretense to guard against the unbelievers.

    For example, Qur'an 3:28

    Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

    In the italicized text that follows, Ibn Kathir, likely the Muslim world's most respected Quran expositor of all time, alternates between quoting Qur'an verses about friendship with non-Muslims, and explaining those verses:

    The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers

    Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers. Allah warned against such behavior when He said,

    "And whoever does that, will never be helped by Allah in any way" [Qur'an 3:28]

    meaning, whoever commits this act that Allah has prohibited, then Allah will discard him. Similarly, Allah said,

    "O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them,"

    until,

    "And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path." [Qur'an 60:1].

    Allah said,

    "O you who believe! Take not for friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves" [Qur'an 4:144],

    and,

    "O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as friends, they are but friends of each other. And whoever befriends them, then surely, he is one of them."[Qur'an 5:51].

    Allah said, after mentioning the fact that the faithful believers gave their support to the faithful believers among the Muhajirin [those who emigrated with Muhammad from Mecca to Medina], Ansar [citizens from Medina who helped Muhammad] and Bedouins,

    "And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you do not behave the same, there will be Fitnah and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption." [Qur'an 8:73]

    [continued in next comment]

    ReplyDelete
  88. [continued from comment above]

    Allah said next [in Qur'an 3:28, which many Islamic scholars say was produced after the above verse, 8:73]

    "unless you indeed fear a danger from them"

    meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari [compiler of the most canonical hadith collection] recorded that Abu Ad-Darda [a companion and pupil of Muhammad] said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah [or taqqiyah, deception on behalf of Islam] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection."

    "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them." A deception "allowed until the Day of Resurrection." Thus you have a mainstream pious Islamic idea of "friendship" with non-believers.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Folks - sulki tells me these videos shows EDL NAZI orientation. They are prohibited in my State. Can anyone please here confirm if any truth in that? I don't go by the titles which may be misleading, Islamic Jihadist broadcast everything is racists if it does not suit their agenda. Don't forget, we are all racists according to Sulki... LOL..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0u-sv13C0g&feature=related&skipcontrinter=1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0pWQRlJi_4&feature=related&skipcontrinter=1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB-1BF0ZOEY&skipcontrinter=1

    Sulki - there is no difference between the NAZIes and Islamists. So wake up and smell the roast beans. Islamic prop-hit is thousand times worse than Hitler. Nobody worships Hitler. Germans will love to forget about the NAZI years only if they could. The MoSlums are the most absurd brainwashed people who don't want to see the stink that is right in front of their eyes and noses.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Traeh,

    Your very learned and relevant citations actually give a positive impact to skouti's posts.

    I can see skouti's evolution on this blog. He is beginning to want to actually become involved in debate. The problem is, he does not understand the obviousness of teleological argument, by which the choice of facts and logic is dictated by the conclusion which one wishes to draw.

    In other words, skouti uncritically puts together a mishmash of old accusations, claims, and video clips to make his impression. Thus, his arguments are neither true nor false; they are simply irrelevant, as they are not backed up by real fact-seeking.

    Take the issue of the EDL. The EDL is composed primarily, though not exclusively, of British working-class people and probably includes soccer hooligans. Tommy Robinson has publicly denounced the racism of judging a person solely by his religion or ethnicity. The EDL was formed in response to the disgraceful betrayal of British sovereignty by the British political classes.

    Now, of course, one of the chasms between skouti and ourselves is that skouti feels that a group of thugs beating up Robinson is a valid refutation of Robinson's work. Very few people in the anti-jihadist movement would condone or see any value in simply beating up Muslim supremists. In fact, this is not a civilized action.

    One reason we resonate to Liberated is that what she says pretty much corresponds to our understanding of Islam and its practice in the Muslim states which are not democratic. If she said she had been present at secret meetings where the unknown Muslim Unclehood had plotted the subversion of the US Congress, then we would need more concrete evidence before deciding that our knowledge of Islamic plots had been improved.

    The way to beat the Muslims is to continue to assert our values, which are the primacy of evidence and logic rather than violence, and the respect for individuals who stay within the law.

    ReplyDelete
  91. skouti - I am waiting for some verification of the links that you posted. Trust me I will not support EDL if they are racists. Do you have any other links, that do not have title containing NAZI or racists, about EDL? That will be great.

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  92. You may have left in your mind, but as long as your thoughts and beliefs remain in that Islamic prison, you can never be free.

    I do understand. Everyone you are related to will refuse to have anything to do with you. For someone brought up in a tribal, family-structured society, that is very much like death.

    You are a prisoner of your fears - come into the light of day. Give yourself a deadline, and leave that closed world by then.

    Isn't it funny that the imprisoned Iranian pastor is freer than you are?

    ReplyDelete
  93. Well said,RonaldB.

    But,Traeh, your work is adding to many readers' knowledge and understanding of the teachings of Islam.

    This link (if it pastes) reviews the recommended books about Sharia put out by a so-called moderate Muslim association in California.
    http://revuse.wetpaint.com/page/Silicon+Valley+Sharia?zone=addthis#.Tv4HW_zEzJs.facebook
    The review highlights how the intolerance and violent enforcement of Islamic values is being encouraged in the USA

    ReplyDelete
  94. Linda - wow ... the statement of the year ..

    "Isn't it funny that the imprisoned Iranian pastor is freer than you are?"

    Absolutely true.

    ReplyDelete
  95. Hi Liberated,

    I am an exmuslim convert from Europe. I converted to get married to an East African muslim lady who came to study at my university where I met her. She convinced me that Islam was good and I was too willing to believe her. After almost 25 years of marriage, we are still pretty much in love with each other and Islam is not much part of our daily lives anymore.
    Meanwhile I read the books that you read and more and I am an apostate now. Discussions with my wife about the peculiar aspects of Islam usually end in a huge fight and a few days of embarrassing silence but our love proves to be stronger each time. The problem that my wife has with those discussions is not about the substance but about me expressing anger about some of the barbaric aspects of islamic teachings. Meanwhile I have started a Movement of exmuslims in my country ( www.exmuslim.org ) and in January I will start giving presentations to political parties and other groups of interest for the objectives of our movement.

    My wife is not aware of this and I want to admit that hiding something for my wife, however noble I might find the cause, tears me apart internally. In addition, my wife is not aware that our children are exmuslims as well and I am glad that I do not have to hide my apostasy for them.

    Now to you, some fatherly advice. I do not want to interfere with the decisions you are going to take for your own future but I want to draw your attention to a few aspects that you need to take into consideration.

    The first is children. If you are thinking of having your own children, I want to tell you that time is running out as you are already 35. This is one of nature's discriminatory aspects that puts women at a disadvantage. Men can have children up to a higher age.
    I know many professional women of your level and over 40 that do not have children and I do not criticize them, so if you say you do not want children that's OK.

    If you do want to start your own family with a non-muslim husband and live the life that you want to live in freedom, I think you will not be able to do it where you live and you'll have to move to Europe, the US or Australia. So you need to look for a job overseas and hopefully you saved some money to get started somewhere else.

    Maybe you feel comfortable living as an apostate now initially but you have to be aware that your internal mental pressure will grow over time and you will have to let it out somewhere after a while and share it with other people.

    The pathetic thing with Islam is that apostasy is such a grave crime that you want to hide it even from your family members but in the same time it might be possible that they are apostates as well hiding it from you. So you have to find out if this is not your case. When we are on holiday in my wife's country, I join my brothers in law to the mosque and I can imagine that I am not the only apostate there but that social pressure pushes them to go to the mosque. So you should talk to your brothers and raise some of the problematic aspects of Islam.
    Anyway, I wish you good luck in whatever you do.
    Jan

    ReplyDelete
  96. "Take the issue of the EDL. The EDL is composed primarily, though not exclusively, of British working-class people and probably includes soccer hooligans. Tommy Robinson has publicly denounced the racism of judging a person solely by his religion or ethnicity. The EDL was formed in response to the disgraceful betrayal of British sovereignty by the British political classes."

    Talk about trying to put a positive spin on the EDL. that is Ronald's way of trying to put a good gloss on the work done in Auschwitz

    But don't talk my word on how racist an organisation EDL is, please do your own research and draw your own conclusions. BTW, after Anders Brevik carried out his massacre in Norway, EDL supporters posted messages of support for Brevik's actions on internet forums and facebook etc. again this has been documented and is available on the internet and other media

    The EDL formed a "jewish division" to support Isreal but this has no jewish members and has been rightly denounced by Jewish groups like the Jewish Chronicle. They also view the EDL as a racist organisation.

    here is a good link on the activities of the EDL

    http://edlnews.co.uk/

    ReplyDelete
  97. Dear Liberator, it doesn't matter to me whether you leave Islam for good or not. That will be your choice and you already excel-sheeted the pros and cons.

    From your blog, I have learnt a lot about the apostates of Islam. I have learnt if you are born into a Moslim family, there is no choice but stick to your religion and family. If you leave, you'll pay the price either by death or live in hiding from other Muslims who have nothing to do with you. But you'll be free.

    I have learnt that Muslims do not want to debate, for instance Skuti, about the stuff that is wrong with the religion. They lack the skill to differentiate between emotions and level-headedness. They get hurt rapidly. If an intellectual challenge is thrown at them they throw a tantrum. They think only the 'braves' can defend Islam - little do they understand the bravest of them all are those see the light, and they exit the tunnel vision, leave Islam to pursue their own happiness. That takes something. I am not sure how many people can really do that.

    I wish you and the other posters Happy New Year.

    ReplyDelete
  98. Interesting and nicely said, RonaldB.

    I'm a bit leery of the EDL. I think in the UK, and perhaps in Europe generally, much more than here in the U.S., there is a tendency to join Islam-criticism with racialism and a tinge of racism.

    That's just my informal impression based on reading occasional news stories and now and then looking at Islam-critical comments in the U.K. People there seem to criticize the totalitarianism of Islam, and in the next moment mention their own race or the race of others in the U.K. And of course the news in the UK seems to constantly euphemize actions of those Muslims who, inspired by Islamic supremacism, commit crimes, and refers to those Muslims only as "Asians". Thus the UK media also racializes these issues, though with the media that happens for complicated and mostly non-racist reasons.

    Some people leading the EDL seem to understand that they have to get rid of any racism in the organization and be concerned exclusively with protecting human rights like freedom of speech particularly with regard to religion, etc., and protecting that freedom from Islamic intimidation.

    But I'm not ready to defend the EDL, as the situation remains too unclear to me still. I fear that they and Europe and the UK will have greater difficulty than the U.S. in distinguishing justifiable criticism of religion from from barbaric racial animus. European nations, though they have become much more racially diverse in recent decades than previously, are still perhaps based to some significant extent on historical blood ties and ethnic groups. The U.S. was never based on blood ties to anything like the same extent as a European nation. As a nation of immigrants from many nations, a nation born of ideas about human rights rather than of ethnic or blood ties, the U.S. has always been based more on ideology and the individual. Thus in criticizing Islam, or allying with it, Europeans -- not just the EDL -- may have greater difficulty than the U.S. in distinguishing race from religion and focusing on resistance to Islam as a religio-political ideology.

    I think it would be wrong for U.S. resistance to or criticism of Islam even to flirt with anything racial. So for myself, I'd just as soon keep EDL at arm's length until it's clear to me they've completed their house cleaning. As long as that's not clear, I'll wait. As far as I know, they are heading in a determined way in a non-racial direction, but that's all I'm prepared to say. We have more than enough on our plates. I just don't have time or patience for racist tinged stuff, especially not in Islam-critical contexts.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Quiet_Dave, that's an excellent link.

    I'll repost it here:
    Silicon Valley Sharia

    ReplyDelete
  100. "The U.S. was never based on blood ties to anything like the same extent as a European nation. As a nation of immigrants from many nations, a nation born of ideas about human rights rather than of ethnic or blood ties, the U.S. has always been based more on ideology and the individual. "

    what complete and utter tripe the above statement is......HELLO, ever heard of the KKK ? where did they come from. KKK, born in the USA, right. How about the treatment of black people from the time of slavery onwards. As for a nation born of ideas and human rights....cry me another river pal. You do remember the founding fathers kept slaves so it wasn't quite freedom and equality for all was it now.

    ReplyDelete
  101. skouti,

    I looked at the link you supplied on EDL news. The first thing that popped out at me was that it had no real forum. In the Letters section, they chose the worst (most extreme) of the emails they got, and published it as an example of the people they opposed.

    I noticed that some of the links you gave profiled EDL "supporters" as being Nazis. I noted that it used the term "supporters" rather than "members". This is a huge difference.

    In terms of logic, it's like saying a dog has four legs and a camel has four legs. Therefore, a dog is a camel. That's also the logic you used to try to discredit Liberated. You said her arguments sounded like Spencer's arguments: hence, she is Spencer in disguise.

    Again, the huge problem is, there is absolutely no place or organization where the average Englishman can turn to to resist the Islamization of Britain other than the EDL. It is almost illegal to criticize Islam as such in Britain. The British government has not only had an explicit policy of importing aliens as immigrants, but it uncritically supplies generous welfare payments to Islamists who openly preach the Sharia takeover of Britain.

    The real value of a blog such as Liberated's is, it gives us the impetus to do what we know we need to do anyway.

    A reasonable set of goals to work for is: end the immigration of people who do not support the present government system and its secular basis, in particular, Muslims; end welfare for immigrant, non-citizens and for chronic welfare "gamers", who use welfare support to sponsor activities they would rather do, end government prosecution of religious criticism, and end government support for religious encroachment.

    Does this program violate anyone's rights? No.

    ReplyDelete
  102. skouti, duh, ever heard that "the exception proves the rule?" you dingleberry?

    Anyone can find exceptions to any pattern. They always exist, though someone of your unreflective nature would not have realized it yet. Only a low I.Q. ignoramus cites exceptions as though that in itself proves a pattern does not exist.

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  103. I have read all your posts and wish you success in your quest for freedom of the body and soul. You are providing inspiration for those who yearn for the chance to live a fulfilling life which does not exist in the confining fence of religious extremism.

    ReplyDelete
  104. In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says painters will suffer the severest punishment

    Several examples from Sahih al-Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 130:
    Narrated 'Aisha:

    "The Prophet entered upon me while there was a curtain having pictures (of animals) in the house. His face got red with anger, and then he got hold of the curtain and tore it into pieces. The Prophet said, 'Such people as paint these pictures will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection.' "


    Volume 7, Book 72, Number 834:
    Narrated Muslim:

    "We were with Masruq at the house of Yasar bin Numair. Masruq saw pictures on his terrace and said, 'I heard Abdullah saying that he heard the Prophet saying, "The people who will receive the severest punishment from Allah will be the picture makers." ' "

    ReplyDelete
  105. Hey guys? I go up to the top of this post and I see, Happy New Year!

    Let's put aside the quarreling for a moment and wish Shakila, a Happy New Year. One in which she finds peace and happiness and learns how to live with what she has chosen.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Traeh, the skouti moslem is a result of close Pakistani inbreeding which results in low IQ births. And here he is to prove it. He's the gift that keeps on giving.

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  107. Happy New Year, Shakila.

    Jeff, the Moslems on this page prove that they do not want her, or any other apostate, to have peace. Her page, and the resulting Moslems who relentlessly attack her, do a service in showing the world the true face of evil Muhammad's death cult. And prove her words to be true.

    ReplyDelete
  108. In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says Muslims "with sins as heavy as a mountain" will not have to go to hell will because Jews and Christians will be made to go instead. Muhammad thus gives a blank check to Muslims to do various evil acts.

    In Sahih Muslim, a canonical hadith collection:

    Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6668:

    "Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) as saying: 'There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians.' (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: 'I do not know as to who is in doubt.' Abu Burda said: 'I narrated it to Umar b. Abd al-Aziz, whereupon he said: "Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)?" I said: "Yes." ' "

    Example of another canonical hadith of the same kind:

    Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665:

    "Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] (may peace be upon him) said: 'When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: "That is your rescue from Hell-Fire." ' "

    ReplyDelete
  109. "I noticed that some of the links you gave profiled EDL "supporters" as being Nazis. I noted that it used the term "supporters" rather than "members". This is a huge difference. "

    Still trying to paint the EDL in a good light eh Ronald. FYI.....the EDL has no members to speak of, they are all supporters. EDL is made up of poor class white people, football thugs, what we would call "chavs" and what would be termed in the USA as "red necks". They are not very intelligent and have no political base to speak of (this is due to their racist/nazi views)

    "It is almost illegal to criticize Islam as such in Britain"

    There are no laws against criticsing Islam in the UK unless you can point to specific laws

    "The British government has not only had an explicit policy of importing aliens as immigrants,"

    Please provide evidence of this by way of policy documents from the UK government. Otherwise SHUT UP as you are making a fool of yourself with every post. Also you should know that immigration to the UK provides with tax revenues (official studies made into this).

    ReplyDelete
  110. "That's also the logic you used to try to discredit Liberated. You said her arguments sounded like Spencer's arguments: hence, she is Spencer in disguise."

    I am not the only one who suspects this is a fake blogger. greenforest and other regular jihad watch readers also doubt this blogger

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  111. Well hey, I commend your "critical thinking" and the fact that you are all being 'careful' not to be 'fooled' by a 'Jihadist in Disguise'.

    But realize that your comments claiming she is 'fake' is actually doing more harm to her than good.

    She expected the attack from Muslims, but what is hurtful is finding people who know how Islam treats apostates, and are calling everything she goes through "fake".

    She is a real person, with real feelings, and a real journey out of this horrible state that many are still stuck in.

    She is not going to disclose any more information. If you care and are obsessed about "credibility", over her own safety, that is your problem, and I invite you to leave this blog and simply stop reading. Because no other information will be offered.


    Shakila, sweetheart, ignore all this, and keep writing.

    ReplyDelete
  112. "She expected the attack from Muslims, but what is hurtful is finding people who know how Islam treats apostates, and are calling everything she goes through "fake"."

    Yes indeed.

    Ya'll should talk to Ali Sina. It is HARD to get rid of this thing in your mind and heart. One needs support and care.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Talitha - "She expected the attack from Muslims, but what is hurtful is finding people who know how Islam treats apostates, and are calling everything she goes through "fake". ...

    There is a misunderstanding Talitha. There are about 30% who are looking for some sort of confirmation about her apostates status. They'll support her 100% when that is confirmed.

    The Muslims attack her no matter what ... because she is talking to us ... because she wants to marry one of us ... becauase she left islam and tell us what she is going through ... because she exist .... because ...

    Please do not compare the temporal doubters with the eternal haters.

    The best she can do is keep on writing ... that way she can turn the doubters around. We all know about the eternal haters..

    Have a good one.

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  114. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  115. Whether she is fake or not is irrelevant, since her existence draws Muhammedan zombies like Muhammad to an elementary school yard at recess, and demonstrates their hatred for apostates and their black hearts.

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  116. skouti, there is a difference between your doubts of the blogger and the others' doubts. They have wondered. Whereas you have tended to dogmatize on the matter and act as though it were self-evident she were not legit. Moreover, the reason you acted as if it were self-evident, was so you could cause ill-feeling here, not because you actually believed it was self-evident. At some level you know it is not self-evident, but you also knew the pretense that it was would pain people who could feel that you were being aggressively deceptive at their expense. That is an example of how you have sometimes used deception (pretending it is self-evident she is a fake) in a sort of sadistic way because you want to twist the knife in people here if you can. I don't say that is all there is to you, as I don't know you. But you've done a fair amount of that aggressive-deception-to-twist-the-knife stuff here. Well, that tends to happen sometimes when people disagree, I guess. A lot of people do not fight honestly or fairly, not just skouti.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Traeh, what else is there to know about the Moslem skouti? He is a racist, and will NOT condemn old men having sex with children. What else do you need to know about this lowlife creep?

    ReplyDelete
  118. Traeh,

    Read all the blog posts from this blogger again from start to finish and then tell me how believable the blogger is. I have already highlighted points which just do not add up or make this blogger real. Granted my "tone" may not be to everyones taste but if it has caused others to question the legitimacy/veracity of this blogger then so be it. How would you feel if I turned out to be correct ?

    In the meantime here are articles on Islam and apostasy:

    http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

    http://islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html

    http://islamnewsroom.com/if-someone-leaves-islam-hot-topics-45

    ReplyDelete
  119. Maybe the Moslem skouti could set up a website with all his links about the real truth about the death cult and apostasy. YOU KNOW, for the other 1.2 billion Moslems that misunderstand it.

    Oh yeah, I forgot, he's here to enlighten the kuffar.

    LOL

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  120. and boy does a fcukwit like steve need enlightening :)

    ReplyDelete
  121. Not really moslem skouti, I'm know enough about vile scum like you. Still hanging around school yards?

    ReplyDelete
  122. Moslem skouti you never get around to answering the question. Do you think your filthy false prophet Muhammad let his 9 year old child bride hold onto her dolls whenever he raped her?

    You know to comfort the child.

    Simple question.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Moslem skouti since you believe your monster prophet did indeed have sex with his 9 year old bride, it is logical to assume Muhammad might have had a smidgeon of humanity in him and let the child comfort herself with her dolls.

    Do you think Muhammad had an iota of humanity in him?

    ReplyDelete
  124. Moslem skouti, I guess your Pakistani background has even more extensive close inbreeding than I first assumed, and that has hamstrung your intellect to the point where logical progression escapes you. Or well, all is not lost, your first cousin will understand.

    LOL

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  125. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  126. skouti,
    Well, I have read the blog posts over, and I didn't see anything to be terribly suspicious of, and I've also seen at least some of your objections and also answers to those objections.

    I will have a look at your apostasy links soon (though not now), as I haven't seen those and am interested.

    As to your tone, I can understand if an individual viciously attacks you in an unprovoked way you perhaps being sort of vicious back at that specific individual, if that helps. But I can't see any particularly good justification for dealing with Greenforest as you did. You didn't seem nearly as forthright with him as you could have been, whereas I think he was forthright with you. One could sometimes be forgiven for thinking you are not interested in actual interchange or conversation, but only in doing your best to assault your "enemy" while you pretend to be having an actual interchange with him. But never mind. Perhaps it's not that important and will all turn out for the best.

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  127. Yeah, Traeh, and you temper those apostasy links with everything your lying eyes have witnessed.

    ReplyDelete
  128. Hello Liberated:

    I like your articles,you write alot better that I.I have only posted once before.I find Steve's photo of a white cat with red lipstick hilarious.

    As an ex-Muslim you might be told:

    "Islam is against killing innocent civilians"

    They are the extremists,one has to understand their logic.

    Because there is a logic.Only 15% of the 1.5 billion Muslims are with the terrorist organizations:Hamas,Hezbullah,etc

    The central detail is regarding killing innocent civilians.

    Hamas,Hezbullah,etc agree with the other Muslims:"Islam is against killing innocent civilians".

    But what is an innocent?

    Sunnis killing Sunnis

    The FIS and GIA in Algeria killed 1OO,OOO Sunni civilians.For them they were not innocent since they were against the FIS-GIA idea of installing Sharia Law.

    Also:

    Shias killing Shias

    Khomeini killed 1OO,OOO innocents in 1O years,for him they were against Islamic law and revolution.They were not innocent.

    Also:

    Sunnis killing Shias

    Al-Qaida,Sunni killed 13O,OOO Shias,for Al-Qaida,and even for many other Sunnis,the Shias are not real Muslims,but corrupters of the true Islam,they were not innocent.

    Also:

    Qaradawi vs Israelis

    He has a weekly show in Al-Jazeera watched by forty million per week who says it is ok to kill Israeli civilians,even children and women,since women do or will do obligatory military service in the Israeli army.

    As for the children,they will grow up to become Israeli soldiers.

    So both groups,those Muslims who are with the terrorists and those who are against them say:"Islam is against killing innocent civilians"

    The difference is the definition of who is innocent.

    But:

    What if real innocents are killed?.

    Not to worry,because if real innocents are killed,then they will go to heaven.

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  129. In short, minoria.

    Moslems vs ...

    Moslems vs ...

    Moslems vs ...

    Moslems vs ...

    Moslems vs ...

    and on

    and on

    and on

    and on ...

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  130. skouti,
    I read your first apostasy link. I have to consider it more carefully, but I can say a couple of things for the moment, then I will probably go to sleep -- been up all night...

    1. I'm very glad if you adhere to that imam's view of apostasy, if I'm reading him right. That seems to mean that you do not believe in any punishment for apostasy from Islam.

    2. If I read him right, that imam seems to be saying that the majority of Islamic interpreters for the majority of Islamic history have believed and still believe that the punishment for apostasy is death. It's great that he's teaching that the majority interpretation is wrong, and he's offering interpretations of the Qur'an that he says invalidate the death penalty for apostasy.

    3. Even if his interpretation is "correct," he seems to say that the majority of Muslim scholars disagree with him. To some extent, I'm not concerned with who is right. What concerns me most is not so much what the Qur'an "really" means as what the largest groups of Muslim scholars throughout history and today believe it means. Those large groups and what they believe are what will impact my world, not some lonely scholar, however true his interpretation might in theory be. But still, skouti, you deserve credit for being against death or jail as punishment for apostasy.

    If I've understood you, and you are indeed against death or jail or other serious punishment for apostates from Islam, have you ever publicly stated that to all the people of your mosque and to your family? -- I'm assuming you are Muslim.

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  131. Minoria : here is one more chilling fact add it to your list - one Muslim said to a CNN reporter, way back in 2004, it is legit to kill kaffir babies, because according to their twisted Islamic logic, they believe everyone is born Moslim. So, if they kill the Kaffir babies, they are not yet corrupted, hence they go to heavens. BTW - yes, he was smiling when he said.

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  132. Westerners who have never been Muslim and have not lived among Muslims for years tend to underestimate the full extent of the horror of the evil danger of Islam because of lack of knowledge.

    Muslim apostates and those devolving into apostasy, on the other hand, tend to underestimate the full extent of the horror of the evil danger of Islam not because they don't know enough -- but because they know too much.

    It's not only a river in Egypt, as they say.

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  133. No one said it would be easy. Jesus even said your enemies would be in your own household but that if you love them more than Jesus (as savior) you are not worthy of Him (Matthew 10:37). St. Peter defined evangelizing as being ready to share with people the reason for your hope: "Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame." 1 Peter 14-16. She needs to be careful how she shares her faith but not ashamed of her faith. After all, even St. Paul sometimes hid from those who would have murdered him for sharing his faith (2 Corinthians 11:32-33).

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  134. Liberated, I believe everything you've posted. Please, do not let the naysayers discourage you from keeping this blog up and running. While I understand the desire to have something more solid than just taking your word that you're who you say you are, I also have complete trust in Mr. Spencer, and do not believe that he would risk his reputation to perpetrate a hoax on the counterjihad community. That's good enough for me.

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  135. Traeh, the taqiyya spewing creep won't condemn pedophilia, doesn’t that tell you enough about him? What more do you need?

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  136. skouti said...(January 1, 2012 12:26 PM )
    Read all the blog posts from this blogger again from start to finish and then tell me how believable the blogger is. I have already highlighted points which just do not add up or make this blogger real. Granted my "tone" may not be to everyones taste but if it has caused others to question the legitimacy/veracity of this blogger then so be it.

    -------------------

    WOW::::SKOUTI -nearly missed your remarks here. You really are a clueless clown about the posters own abilities on this blog. Let me entertain you for a sec - most people who contribute to the blog/comments do not take things at the face value. You did not help us out. We question things to deduce our conclusions. Believe you and me, we tend to come to the same conclusion. We means all the posters excluding Muslims, because the Muslism follow a very different pathological logic of Mohd.

    So my point is the posters here do not really doubt her as a person, who is not Robert - as you thought all along - who may or may not want to leave Islam, they are aware of the Islamic traits, like taquia. That is the issue we are discussing. Nevertheless she got amazing amount of support. You never gave her any positive support. Then again we should know better to expect anything other than positive reaction from you.

    Just to be clear - the posters doubt because of the islamic trait called taquia. Otherwise, she would have received 100% support from the people around here - of course exclusion of Muslims.

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  137. Steve,
    Sometimes in these types of situations I'm incorrigibly hoping to find redeeming qualities, transformative possibilities, real change. There are some indications he's changed a bit and become more interested in real conversation here. Also, I can imagine that ultimately he might be somewhat confused and perhaps doesn't entirely know what he's doing.

    As to Aisha, maybe he wants to see the religion in the best light, and may have convinced himself that the truth about Aisha is uncertain. Also, it seems that marrying prepubescent girls was not so uncommon in Arab culture of the time, unless I'm mistaken. Further, men in other parts of the world, including Europe, used to marry young girls not so uncommonly perhaps, though what little research I've seen says such girls were not prepubescent, and were considered marriageable at a minimum age more like 12, 13. But I haven't studied the question much.

    The most serious problem with Aisha is probably that Muhammad sacralized in the Qur'an and by his actions marriage to prepubescent girls, so that it still goes on in some Muslim countries today and can be very hard to reform because of its basis in the religion. But you probably knew all that.

    Anyway, I don't see the harm in talking to the guy as long as he doesn't cross certain lines that I feel are kind of beyond the pale. Lately he's sort of stopped crossing some lines, so I don't mind talking to him to see what's going on. You never know...

    Anyway, just cause I'm this way doesn't mean anyone else needs to be.

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  138. "SHUT UP as you are making a fool of yourself with every post."

    skouti,

    I'm sure you'll be happy to know it took me less than two minutes to find the documentation for the claims that I made. It takes far longer to present it than to find it. So, I'm sure you won't mind my emphasizing my points along with the documentation.

    1. People in England who criticize Islam too vigorously are subject to fines:

    "It is almost illegal to criticize Islam as such in Britain"

    Quote from t. Section 29B of the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006
    "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is
    threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."

    In February 2008, two evangelists meekly handing out tracts in the predominantly Muslim
    Alum Rock in Birmingham were threatened with arrest for committing a ‘hate crime’ by a
    Community Support Officer who happened to be a Muslim. He is alleged to have told them:
    “This is a Muslim area”

    http://www.themediaproject.org/sites/default/files/EUROPE%20REPORT%20-%20Dr.%20Jenny%20Taylor.pdf

    2. The Labour Party for years had an explicit policy of encouraging immigration.

    Back in October Andrew Neather, a former Labour party speechwriter, let the cat out the bag when he said that the Government had encouraged immigration “to rub the Right’s nose in diversity”. But while Neather quickly backtracked, documents now released under the Freedom of Information Act suggest that he was telling the truth.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100025635/labours-secret-plan-to-lure-immigrants-was-borderline-treason-and-plain-stupid/

    3. The net immigration policy of the British government has been a net fiscal disaster, with immigrants going on welfare.

    "Immigration has become highly significant to the UK economy: immigrants
    comprise 12% of the total workforce—and a much higher proportion in London.
    However, we have found no evidence for the argument, made by the Government,
    business and many others, that net immigration—immigration minus emigration—
    generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population."

    "HOUSE OF LORDS
    Select Committee on Economic Affairs
    1st Report of Session 2007–08
    The Economic
    Impact of
    Immigration"

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/82.pdf

    I couldn't find any real information on the EDL's membership, although I made no claim concerning the EDL other than it gets a lot of support due to the lack of any real alternative for the many Brits who see their country threatened by unrestrained immigration.

    "The EDL by numbers

    2,000 The number of people thought to have attended an EDL march in Blackburn, at which leader Tommy Robinson head-butted a fellow member.

    26,000 The number of people who "Like" the EDL on Facebook.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/english-defence-league-prepares-to-storm-local-elections-6267740.html

    I realize this blurb is not very complimentary, but I don't filter the information I give.

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  139. Traeh, if the Moslem had doubts about Aisha's age he would have immediately condemned pedophilia, but, he knew by condemning old men having sex with children, that, would trap him into condemning his pedophile prophet. He is a weasel, as you, and I have, seen countless times in our interaction with the head-banging zombies. You are a person of good will, and for your sake I hope you’re right.

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  140. Dear Greenforest

    You are most welcome to distrust Shakila until cows come home. She is not asking anyone any favor. If she asks please don’t give it to her. Okay?

    I don’t need any more assurances than the ones I have. In fact I have had more exchanges with Shakila on a personal level. You are free to distrust. I don't.

    Millions of people have left Islam. At least a thousand of them have written to me to say they left Islam thanks to me. So why is it so difficult for you to accept that people leave Islam and why would Shakila need to prove it to you?

    Happy New Years

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  141. "WOW::::SKOUTI -nearly missed your remarks here. You really are a clueless clown about the posters own abilities on this blog. "

    With steve amongst you its makes you wonder, doesn't it dar-schan ? steve's obessession with child sex it can be safe to surmise he was a victim or a perp in the christian church's child abuse scandal. but that is another topic for later.

    Credit where credit is due, as you and others were too busy fawning over this blogger, I alone asked the important questions which in turn led to others doing the same.

    "Minoria : here is one more chilling fact add it to your list - one Muslim said to a CNN reporter, way back in 2004,"

    OMG, one muslim said that.....SCANDAL :) But compare that to what the bible says about homosexuality:

    "Leviticus 20:13

    V13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

    RonaldB,

    "1. People in England who criticize Islam too vigorously are subject to fines:

    "It is almost illegal to criticize Islam as such in Britain"

    Quote from t. Section 29B of the Racial and Religious Hatred Act of 2006
    "A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is
    threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred."

    And that is it too protect all religions, not just Islam. the legislation you quote makes no specific reference to protecting Islam per se.

    "3. The net immigration policy of the British government has been a net fiscal disaster, with immigrants going on welfare.

    "Immigration has become highly significant to the UK economy: immigrants
    comprise 12% of the total workforce—and a much higher proportion in London.
    However, we have found no evidence for the argument, made by the Government,
    business and many others, that net immigration—immigration minus emigration—
    generates significant economic benefits for the existing UK population."

    And did this report make the correlation between immigrations going on benefits and the economic benefits ? or did you make that assumption

    You might want to read the UK govt's response to this report

    http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm74/7414/7414.pdf

    "I couldn't find any real information on the EDL's membership, although I made no claim concerning the EDL other than it gets a lot of support due to the lack of any real alternative for the many Brits who see their country threatened by unrestrained immigration."

    All the information on the EDL is on the internet suffice to say it is widely recognised as a racist/neo-nazi organisation. Its membership is drawn from the BNP and a violently racist group , Combat 18.

    faithfreedom,

    "Millions of people have left Islam"

    Millions eh, Assuming it is too much for you to provide evidence of this

    "At least a thousand of them have written to me to say they left Islam thanks to me."

    Again care to supply any evidence of this just to help out those who are questioning the veracity of this venture

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  142. skouti : cool down dude. Let me make it ABC simple for you-
    Yes you doubted her - you did that on your first postings. You are psychologically and emotionally challenged when you read her first blog. You have real difficulty in handling a debate intellectually. You resort to a school yard behavior. The others put forward rationale arguments to doubt her status. As they gather more information they may change their minds.

    You are not there yet, here is why? Steve, picked up your school yard behavior, stated one of the known facts based on Quran, that Mohd married a six years old kid, he was about 53 at a time and she was his 4th wife, what is your view on that?

    The logic tells me and the others, to even have a slight desire for sex with a child, that is a typical known behavior of a child molester or a sexomaniac. Any GOD sent good person will never ever do that, especially when you are in any authority to set an example, for instance Pedo-Mo.

    That fact actually psychologically and emotionally drains the crap out of you. If you sincerely believe it will be a wrong trait to set to screw a baby girl, then you know what to do. You got to accept the fact that Pedo-Mo was not a credible prop-hit. Once you get over that, then use your brain and do more research into that character, and see if you can confirm all that with your new discoveries.

    Then you can decide proper why we have a liberator and the pain and agony she may go through.

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  143. Skouti - we are not discussing bible here. This forum is about the Liberator and her pain and agony with Islam. The issue in hand is the Quran. BTW - if you have valid problems with the Bible, I can understand that, I may even agree to them, no one here is going to go out and stretch their imaginations to dispute your concerns, as long as they are written in black and white.

    Can you handle the issue that are blatantly obvious about Quran and Pido-Mo's other behavioural preachings? Pido-Mo's sexual behavior with a six-nine years old, amongst hundreds of other things are questionable by any Human Standard. What do you say to that, without throwing up another tantrum?

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  145. @Moslem skouti

    Here's a story today about Islamic child brides

    Child Bride Tortured


    And this is what the scumball moslem skouti will not condemn.

    I've asked him many times if he will condemn pedophilia, and he won't do it. Instead he blathers on about how "I'm" obsessed with fighting this evil.

    Like almost all members of the death cult I’ve met this Islamic scumball’s agenda is obfuscation and deflection.

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  146. I'll ask him again?

    Moslem skouti will you condemn any old man (as sub-human scum) that has sex with children?

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  147. Here’s another story, and there are lots and lots more, but this one speaks about ongoing Muslim problem in the host country the parasitic skouti resides in. This is the evil that Moslem skouti try's to turn the tables on decent people with his in attempt at mockery and deflection.


    Muslim Child Brides in the UK

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  148. "You have real difficulty in handling a debate intellectually. You resort to a school yard behavior. "

    This coming from dar-schan an the ex-altar boy steve.......irony anyone ??? LOL.

    Are these two the best the Islam HATERS have to offer.......Be scared everyone, be very afraid of these two backward ass yo-yos

    its like having a debate with tweedle dee and tweddle dumb, HAHAHAHAHA

    "Skouti - we are not discussing bible here"

    Why, not ? Do you believe, as it says in the bible that homosexuals and lesbians should be put to death ?

    "Leviticus 20:13

    V13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

    If the fake blogger is going to be a God fearing Christian then she should know about the bible

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  149. Skouti - further to Steve's posting, here is another story about an Austrian/German guy, an ordinary person with paedophilic behavior:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2076168/German-Adolf-B-slept-daughter-500-times-jailed-3-years.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

    Look at the shame on his face on the picture. Can you imagine Pedo-Mo berrying his face with his hand about the shame? I guess not. This guy knows he did wrong - he accepts the responsibility and prepares for the verdict. Though I think he is getting away lightly. Nobody in their right mind is going to worship him no matter what connection he assumes to have with God.

    Check out the comments he is unanimously condemned.

    In the Muslim world, paedophiles are accepted as long as the guy gives the girl a shelter. It is about the sexual objects. It removes the human element from the feeling. They are condoned by the Quran. What is your view about that?

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  150. "Do you believe, as it says in the bible that homosexuals and lesbians should be put to death " -

    I don't, nor do the laws in the Western world.

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  151. Muhammad's evil example is spreading out from the Islamic hellholes as the ideological cancer spreads.

    Muslim child Brides on the Rise

    And because of that, “accepted” Islamic pedophilia is becoming a worldwide problem. The Moslem skouti likes to deflect the accepted practice of pedo Mo’s example in Islamic culture by deflecting the subject to “unacceptable” behavior in the West, and why? Because he continually displays the inability to distinguish the difference between “unacceptable” and “acceptable”. His pedophile prophet has warped his moral compass that much. And here the Moslem is, to show us in his own words.

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  152. Skuoti - "If the fake blogger is going to be a God fearing Christian then she should know about the bible "

    Wow... hold your horses right there pony chaser.. when did you acquired that Priesthood?

    She already read the quran, God knows how many times. She decided against that.

    How's about answering some of the Qs - left addressed to you without getting a fit? Can you manage that?

    That proves my point. Get over those tantrums cowboy. No one takes a notice when you behave like a 12 years old. I can understand if you were a 12 years old. You are not 12, are you?

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  153. "Do you believe, as it says in the bible that homosexuals and lesbians should be put to death "

    See, more deflection by the Moslem skouti.

    Nobody pays any attention to those old violent Deuteronomy passages and the Moslem can't show any mainstream groups calling for their implementation.

    The Moslem knows that, but, it is just more deflection designed to take the heat off of all the real world examples of Islam's evil.

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  156. skouti : "Be scared everyone, be very afraid of these two backward ass yo-yos" - get away. You are kidding right? Some of the most scary things that I ever read are written in the Quran. Whenever I read parts of the Quran, I go "holi shit! Who the f... believes that. they got to be out of their f..ing mind ..! then I take a cold shower...stops me from exploding ..."

    The scariest thing that anyone can imagine is there are 1.2 billion people follow Pido-Mo's dictates. No one can beat that skouti - if they ever make it, that would be a great scary movie to watch, will it not?

    I don't wanna scare you. You are not there yet, intellectually. Get back to your baby bride - she needs you more that the liberator. The liberator is a grown woman in her prime. She's going to find real man who will give her great time. You baby-abusers keep on rotting in that garbage can. Be a brave man, follow her foot-steps, get out of the garbage can. Enjoy life.

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  157. "Skouti - further to Steve's posting, here is another story about an Austrian/German guy, an ordinary person with paedophilic behavior:"

    Isn't it odd that dar-schan and altar boy steve are stressed out about Muhammed being a paedophile (something which no one apart from the Islam HATERS believe) but cannot address the fact that the Christian Church generated the largest body of paedophiles in living memory. The level of child abuse in the Christian Church was unprecedented. It crossed all countries and the Church even covered up the scale of the abuse........the paedophile priests who abused children were not viewed as perps by the church but as sinners who deserved another chance......to abuse again and again and again.

    "The scariest thing that anyone can imagine is there are 1.2 billion people follow Pido-Mo's dictates."

    Bet it just burns you right up doesn't it.....to know that despite your best efforts, Islam continues to grow.......cold shower time for you ? Here is the the central question the Islam HATERS cannot resolve i.e. if Islam is such a bad religion, then why are their 1.5 billion muslims..........cue their comical answers

    "The liberator is a grown woman in her prime. She's going to find real man who will give her great time."

    A real man eh dar-schan....I do believe that rules you and stevey boy out..... shame really esp the way you two have been going after her. the poor fake blogger is no doubt having second thoughts, LOL

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  158. Once again the vile Moslem skouti demonstrates that the pedophiles in the west are not "acceptable" and are hated by any decent human being. A concept that obviously escapes his warped immoral mind. When a pedophile is covered up or fluffed off it is a “scandal”. A word that would be foreign to the moslem skouti. A recent example we recently saw with the university coach, and those that covered it up, were shamed, and charged. It is not acceptable behaviour like in Islamic culture because of the pedophile prophet’s example of marrying a 6 year old child and having sex with that child at the age of 9.

    And skouti moslem, Islam may indeed continue to grow, but, the kuffar out number your death cult greatly, and are growing at an even faster rate, so put that in your hookah and smoke it, moslem.

    OH, and skouti moslem will you condemn old men that have sex with children? Watch and see the moslem ignore that question for the umpteenth time.

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  159. Dear Ali,

    First of all, to you and Liberated, I want to be clear that I do not think Liberated should be revealing additional identifying details about herself. I think she has already revealed too many of these details. Those of us who care about apostates do not need to know such things as Liberated's car type; indeed, it is dangerous to reveal such detail. My request is that you and Robert provide a bit more information about the means of communication and verification, e.g., phone calls etc. Again, no need to get into specific details that might identify Liberated.

    You wrote:
    "I don’t need any more assurances than the ones I have. In fact I have had more exchanges with Shakila on a personal level."

    This statement increases my confidence slightly. However, on "a personal level" is vague when clearer options are available...I would guess and hope you mean more than just emails and some photos (e.g., such as phone conversations)...but that's not clear. I don't understand why it would be difficult to say, if, for example, you'd had lengthy phone conversations, just say "I've talked to her at length over the phone"? Even this--"By personal level of communication I mean more than just emails and some photos"--would be an improvement.

    "You are free to distrust. I don't."

    You are privy to information I haven't seen and to which you have not yet attested explicitly.

    "Millions of people have left Islam. At least a thousand of them have written to me to say they left Islam thanks to me. So why is it so difficult for you to accept that people leave Islam and why would Shakila need to prove it to you?"

    Of course there are people leaving Islam; I never claimed otherwise. (I know one apostate myself not just through email correspondence, over a period of five years but also through a lengthy phone conversation and by working together on a website and on a lengthy document; and I have corresponded with a few others associated with the first through email). My concern is that you and Robert have not yet given sufficient assurances to the readers.

    There are people who are sympathetic to Liberated's situation but who just need a few more explicit assurances from you and Robert (and perhaps from the others she's contacted).

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  160. Skouti - "Isn't it odd that dar-schan and altar boy steve are stressed out about Muhammed being a paedophile " -

    Good one skouti - That is one of the few things any normal person finds it very disturbing, not only me.

    There is a hope, because you stated "...the paedophile priests who abused children were not viewed as perps by the church but as sinners who deserved another chance...". Me, and anyone in the world, exclusion zone - islam, condemns this appalling behavior by any member of the society. We want our society to be safe of the paedophile misfits. We will punish anyone that is involved in child abuse, not exclusive to sex, also any other form of psychological and physical abuse. We want the children to live their childhood. We don't want children growing up with serious psychological hang-ups. The childhood, for growing up, is the key development age for any human being.

    OTOH - it is written in the quran and backed up by the hadiths, Pedo-Mo married a six years old, a doll aged baby girl. According to the text in the Quran, HE - Pedo-Mo, let her play with his "manly" parts till she was nine years old. At nine, she was seduced. He, the authoritative representative of Allah, compromised her childhood to fulfil his sexual fantasy.

    Do you think, by today's standards, it was wrong of him to do that?

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  161. Isn't it odd that dar-schan and altar boy steve are stressed out about Muhammed being a paedophile (something which no one apart from the Islam HATERS believe)

    Now, lets blow skouti's lie out of the water.

    example
    example
    example
    example
    example
    example
    example
    Muhammads Child Marriage

    LOL you're too stupid, Moslem.

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  162. Skouti - "Here is the the central question the Islam HATERS cannot resolve i.e. if Islam is such a bad religion, then why are their 1.5 billion muslims..........cue their comical answers"

    In your dream world Islam is growing. That is kind of figure put up by the OIC to gloat about the power they exert.

    Facts - there aint many Muslim countries who have the resources, education, and sophistication to get the census survey administrated as there are in the West. In addition there is no credible figures available that really states Islam is growing. Each Mullah or what have you gives you non-sense figures: I have read from different sources very different Moslim population figures, ranging from 1.2 bill to 2.3 bill. That is +/- 100%. If someone tells me an answer to a question, and it is 100% out - that is BS.

    There are people leaving Islam and there are people adding to the Islamic population. Mostly the growth comes from the birth rate in MoSlum families. They don't use contraceptives - because another f..ing Mullah knows it all doesn't allow it. The number of people converting to Islam has gone down dramatically over the last years, because people took interest to read the Quran themselves, like myself. In addition there are lots of information easily available on the Internet.

    Do you consider Internet unIslamic, because it exposes the truth about Islam?
    Islam is not going to fool smart people all the time.

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  164. skouti - "A real man eh dar-schan....I do believe that rules you and stevey boy out."

    When did she gave you the authority to speak and decide on her behalf? I missed that. The last I read, she left the banana benders on the platform. She saw the light ahead, bought the ticket and got on the train.

    I take it all back if you show me a link where she stated Skouti will decide who she can marry... LOL. You are one heck of a laughing stock on this site. Keep it up. We are here too. BTW - I will send you the wedding invite if you learn to behave ... ha ha ha.

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  166. LOL, Dar-shan, skouti’s barbs are infantile, and and indicative of his low intellectual performance on this page. In fact, he is so stupid, that he has no idea that he is stupid. Which is why he continues to amuse us to no end.

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  167. Tweedle dee and Tweedle dumb ( for the benefit of everyone, dumb is altar boy steve) in fine form I see, lol

    Well Dar schan, Islam certainly fooled you as you and altar boy steve do nothing else but troll the internet for stuff on Islam. You must be "experts" by now :)

    Do you go out in the real world and espouse your weird views to others ?

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  168. Steve - to be honest, I think I pity him. He is stuck in the rot. As you said, he got be really stupid to keep coming back for absurd amount of mega-hammering.

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  169. He is the gift that keeps on giving, Dar.

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  170. skouti - "Do you go out in the real world and espouse your weird views to others ?"

    Wow...wow..skouti... where did you think about that, hey, It must be when you went to the giddy-room took the dump. Did your back or the front suppose not to face Mecca? I keep forgetting. I guess if you get that one wrong your brain gets all messed up, right there.

    The people who should be answering that questions are the Muslims. That includes you. I don't have to waste my time on those bum carpets bending up and down at least six times a day. I have so many outdoor hobbies, that you can only dream about. I got a one week of skiing lined up with the gals and buddies, that is a good starter. You can only imagine, we gonna have fun...

    What is your sorry ass do other than limiting yourself to be a class clown?

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  171. Update:
    Robert has explicitly confirmed having spoken to Liberated and attests that he has additional supporting information, see here.

    For me, as someone who trusts Robert, this is all the attested confirmation I needed to see.

    Liberated,

    Please accept my apology. I believe my addressing this issue was for the better. You have my support.

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  172. ROFLMAO@dar schan

    Ok so a backward ass cracker like you can ski........that'll impress the fake blogger no end but I hate to break it to you, you still won't get a look in.....shame

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  173. skouti - Here you have it ..

    Greenforest to the liberator after he was satisfied with the answers : "Please accept my apology. I believe my addressing this issue was for the better. You have my support. "

    This is how we treat women with respect. She and other Moslum women know enough about Muslim men - they are lining up to take the next train.... ha ha ha ...

    Don't be shy skouti... come on board.. You only have a lot to gain... you shouldn't be hanging around with those hand bangers any more... common we will help you.

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  174. skouti - "I hate to break it to you, you still won't get a look in.....shame " --- LOL ... that cracked me up!!!

    Go back to your child cousin wife. She probably thinks you are cool.... LOL

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  175. "Don't be shy skouti... come on board"

    What, and lose those Islamic perks like child molestation. Never! Since the moslem refuses to condmen suchs acts, by his continued silence, he reveals himself only too well.

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  176. now now dar-schan, don't beat yourself up too much just because you didn't get a "thank you" from the fake blogger........rejected you already blud.....hehehehe

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  177. Steve - from what I can judge, he has a limited life and that is enforced by a bunch of head bangers preaching allah this and allha that the whole day along. He never really thought of living outside the perimeters. I think our interaction may make him think laterally.... there is a chance that it will click and he might think, God, this is all crap, he needs a life.

    He lives in the West. He can do a lot with his life and contribute to better our society. He only needs to think if he was living back in Pakistan, what will he give to have a small chance to live in the West? He should talk to the people who risk everything to get a chance to live in the West. More than 80% of them come from the Islamic lands.

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  178. You forget about his compromised intellect, Dar. Too much inbreeding has robbed him of the mental capacity that would allow him to understand the simplest concepts, like revering his Arab conqueror, the child molesting Muhammad, and betraying his own Indian culture and heritage. He’s too stupid, evne, to understand he’s a traitor to his own race.

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  179. I came to a conclusion the liberator and skouti should swap their countries. Problem will be solved. We will treat the liberator with respect and dignity. Skouti can take his first cousin child bride to the Islamic paradise.

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  180. "he needs a life."

    Irony anyone ? No seriously, by definiton the Islam Hating mob have no where else to go apart from the internet. They are not mainstream and as I stated previously they are a vocal minority (look there are two of the brightest bulbs in dar schan and exz-altar boy steve). Oh I am in deep trouble when these two bloodclots get going :)

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  181. The traitor skouti is a hypocrite, Dar, and will never live his life in the Islamic Hellhole of Pakistan. No, he prefers a kuffar community where his moral and intellectual betters have provided him with a cushy life.

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  182. oh it hurts, stop it you FOOL :)

    Actually it does burn these Crackers to know that muslims can come to their countries and live better lives than them, while they have to work their ass's off for sweet FA :) :) :)

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  183. skouti - "look there are two"

    Really? I can see you got hundreds of supporters there. LOL.

    Seriously speaking, Steve is right, you are a time waster with no inputs and originality.

    Good luck with your head banging. Just curious, do you have that ugly looking big boil in the middle of your forehead? ... man O man... Islam is for the desperate bums. I need to go and peel grapes for my doll. She is calling..

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  184. Actually traitor skouti, while very few moslems do live better, the vast majority live in shithole slums, so the burn, as you say, is not even one calorie strong. It seems you’ll have to form a committee of your inbred brethren in order to achieve a witty repartee above the pathetic performance you’ve displayed so far.

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  185. "Really? I can see you got hundreds of supporters there."

    No need sunshine when we are up against you two brightest bulbs. Holy shit are you the best of the Islam hating bunch......am quaking in fear, BWAHAHAHAHAHA

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  186. Better form that committee quick traitor skouti, your last attempt is no improvement on your prior embarrassment.

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  187. skouti, stay classy as a HATER

    Enjoy :)

    Canonical hadiths say Muhammad (in his fifties) consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was nine (lunar) years old.

    A lunar year is about 355 days long, which means that Aisha may have been several months short of her ninth birthday.

    Some examples from Bukhari, the most canonical hadith collection:

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:

    Narrated Aisha:

    ”that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).”

    -------------------------------------------------

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:

    Narrated Aisha:


    “that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)."

    -------------------------------------------------

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:

    Narrated Ursa:

    “The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”

    -------------------------------------------------

    Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

    Narrated Hisham's father:

    “Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.”

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  188. skouti, enjoy pushing your HATE :)

    Had Aisha reached puberty at age 9 when Muhammad, in his fifties, consummated the marriage with her? No, she had not: according to core Islamic texts, 1) her dolls were with her and 2) dolls are only permitted to prepubescent children

    From Sahih Muslim, a canonical hadith collection:

    Book 008, Number 3311:

    “A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.”

    In the next hadith, we learn that playing with dolls is only permitted for prepubescent children

    From Sahih al-Bukhari, a canonical hadith collection:

    Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

    Narrated Aisha: “I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.” (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    (The parenthetical statement is not mine -- it's in University of Southern California's Sahih al-Bukhari online, as you can see by clicking on the link above.)

    And then of course there is the increasingly infamous Qur'an verse 65:4 that specifies a waiting period for prepubescent and post-menopausal females to remarry after being divorced. There is no waiting period if the marriage was not consummated (See Quran 33:49). Thus Qur'an 65:4 assumes consummation with prepubescent girls.

    Qur'an Chapter 65, Verse 4:

    “And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.”

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  189. Islamic scholars' explanations of Qur'an 65:4 show that the verse assumes consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls

    Before quoting the scholars on Quran 65:4, it should be noted that Quran 33:49 lays down that when a divorced female is to marry a new spouse, a waiting period is required only if the previous marriage was consummated. The scholars I will be quoting below all know this.  One of them, Maududi, mentions and explains it.

    With that in mind, first consider Ibn Abbas, a companion of Muhammad, and one of many authorities who affirm that Qur'an 65:4 refers to the waiting period for prepubescent girls to remarry after divorce.

    Ibn Abbas on Qur'an 65:4
    “(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation) because of old age, (if ye doubt) about their waiting period, (their period (of waiting) shall be three months) upon which another man asked: “O Messenger of Allah! What about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young?” (along with those who have it not) because of young age, their waiting period is three months. Another man asked: “what is the waiting period for those women who are pregnant?” (And for those with child) i.e. those who are pregnant, (their period) their waiting period (shall be till they bring forth their burden) their child. (And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah) and whoever fears Allah regarding what he commands him, (He maketh his course easy for him) He makes his matter easy; and it is also said this means: He will help him to worship Him well.”

    Some eight hundred years later appeared the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, one of the most widely used interpretations of the Qur'an. Tafsir al-Jalalayn also tells us that Qur'an 65:4 speaks of waiting period for divorce of prepubescent girls:

    “And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months — both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed [waiting] period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.”

    [comment continued below]

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  190. [continued from above]

    65:4, according to Wahidi's respected explanation of the Qur'an:

    “(And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) [65:4]. Said Muqatil: “When the verse (Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart…), Kallad ibn al-Nu‘man ibn Qays al-Ansari said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is the waiting period of the woman who does not menstruate and the woman who has not menstruated yet? And what is the waiting period of the pregnant woman?’ And so Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse”. Abu Ishaq al-Muqri’ informed us> Muhammad ibn ‘Abd Allah ibn Hamdun> Makki ibn ‘Abdan> Abu’l-Azhar> Asbat ibn Muhammad> Mutarrif> Abu ‘Uthman ‘Amr ibn Salim who said: “When the waiting period for divorced and widowed women was mentioned in Surah al-Baqarah, Ubayy ibn Ka‘b said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, some women of Medina are saying: there are other women who have not been mentioned!’ He asked him: ‘And who are they?’ He said: ‘Those who are too young [such that they have not started menstruating yet], those who are too old [whose menstruation has stopped] and those who are pregnant’. And so this verse (And for such of your women as despair of menstruation…) was revealed”.

    The bracketed text is not me, it's in the Wahidi at Altafsir.com

    Ibn Kathir is perhaps the Muslim world's most respected Quran expositor.

    Kathir says of 65:4 “Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah [waiting period before remarriage] is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah [verse] in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. (see Qur'an 2:228) The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah [waiting period before remarriage] is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His [Allah's] saying;[Qur'an 65:4] (and for those who have no courses...)”

    [continued below]

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  191. [continued from above]

    Syed Abul Ala Maududi (died 1979), another famous Qur'an expositor, says of Qur’an 65:4: “Here, one should bear in mind the fact that according to the explanations given in the Quran the question of the waiting period arises in respect of the women with whom marriage may have been consummated, for there is no waiting-period in case divorce is pronounced before the consummation of marriage. (Al-Ahzab: 49). Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for the girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible.

    So major Muslim expositors of the Quran agree that Quran 65:4 assumes and supports consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls. These expositors know what Maududi above mentions: per Quran 33:49, a waiting period before remarriage is only required if the dissolved marriage was consummated.

    And many Muslim translations of 65:4 make absolutely clear that it refers to remarriage of prepubescent girls. (See for example these translations: Al-Muntakahb, Abdel Haleem, Abdul Majid Daryabadi, Aisha Bewley, Ali Quli Qara'i, Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali, Muhammad Taqi Usmani.)

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